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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
It's something curious how explain freedom but will consider a general case:
Richmen and celebs consider fame, fortune and richness are symbols of freedom. And I was thinking about it.
By one hand, who doesn't dream to be millionaire or famous? You wouldn't have to work or it makes live better. However, with those things come envy, debts and suffering which doesn't look on the highlights.
And I'll ask you: don't you think this materialistic concept of freedom is something baloney? Me do.
Freedom doesn't measure in quantity. I think freedom is what you do while don't abuse of third persons. It's what you can do, not what you want to do.

Or what do you think about it?
 

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It's something curious how explain freedom but will consider a general case:
Richmen and celebs consider fame, fortune and richness are symbols of freedom. And I was thinking about it.
By one hand, who doesn't dream to be millionaire or famous? You wouldn't have to work or it makes live better. However, with those things come envy, debts and suffering which doesn't look on the highlights.
And I'll ask you: don't you think this materialistic concept of freedom is something baloney? Me do.
Freedom doesn't measure in quantity. I think freedom is what you do while don't abuse of third persons. It's what you can do, not what you want to do.

Or what do you think about it?
I have watched some TED talks from people who have had a stroke and their left brain stopped functioning for a few days. These people came from different backgrounds and professions. One was a professor at school and she explained how everything felt new. There was no judgement or attachment being in that state. She felt in total bliss. Actually a major factor to freedom may be staying in the present moment. As long as you are there the mental chatter in the brain can slip away and you feel clear headed. I think freedom has more to do with state of mind than material possessions or what you accumulate in life.
 

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tombstone blues
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Find out how free you feel on a stomach that's been empty for four days and it's thirty degrees and you've got no roof over your head

Find out how free you feel working 10 to 14 hours a day just for subsistence

Because that's how it was for 99% of the people who ever lived until the last 150 years or so

There most certainly is a relationship between freedom as we understand the concept and material abundance

You disassociate quality and quantity because in this day and age quantity is most abundant. You'd think different if that quantity went away. You'd think different real fast
 

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Find out how free you feel on a stomach that's been empty for four days and it's thirty degrees and you've got no roof over your head

Find out how free you feel working 10 to 14 hours a day just for subsistence

Because that's how it was for 99% of the people who ever lived until the last 150 years or so

There most certainly is a relationship between freedom as we understand the concept and material abundance

You disassociate quality and quantity because in this day and age quantity is most abundant. You'd think different if that quantity went away
I didn't say that there wasn't a relationship. The material possessions I speak of are non essential. I agree that everybody needs to have their basic needs met. But once that is reached accumulating more money or possessions won't necessarily help. There have even been studies and the point at which happiness and wealth seem to be connected is around the 60k-85k range before the effect seems to wear off. If one believes freedom and happiness are correlated then accumulating more wealth won't necessarily help. But some people maybe think freedom and happiness do not correlate. Then I could see how this outcome could change someones perspective.
 

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tombstone blues
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I didn't say that there wasn't a relationship. The material possessions I speak of are non essential. I agree that everybody needs to have their basic needs met. But once that is reached accumulating more money or possessions won't necessarily help. There have even been studies and the point at which happiness and wealth seem to be connected is around the 60k-85k range before the effect seems to wear off. If one believes freedom and happiness are correlated then accumulating more wealth won't necessarily help. But some people maybe think freedom and happiness do not correlate. Then I could see how this outcome could change someones perspective.
Our brains are wired so that we want two things above all else: purpose and novelty

Purpose is at least partially fulfilled by providing the necessities of life. 60-85k a year is enough to provide sufficient necessities for almost everyone and their family in a Western country

Novelty is pretty widely and cheaply available. 60-85k a year is also enough to provide enough novelty for most people in a Western country
 

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Freedom is not tied to materialism. In fact, out current system and the skyrocketing depression across the board are happening because of materialism. Tie yourself to things and there is less freedom. Simple as that.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Find out how free you feel on a stomach that's been empty for four days and it's thirty degrees and you've got no roof over your head

Find out how free you feel working 10 to 14 hours a day just for subsistence

Because that's how it was for 99% of the people who ever lived until the last 150 years or so

There most certainly is a relationship between freedom as we understand the concept and material abundance

You disassociate quality and quantity because in this day and age quantity is most abundant. You'd think different if that quantity went away. You'd think different real fast
Well. First of all, I've got covered my basic necessities. I've got a house where live, three part-time jobs which I'm work for pleasure of being useful, three foods and medical service. Therefore, I can't whine for that.

Second, I spend hours at the computer, and it forsaken my sight. So, I got moments to think and others to develop my creativity: reading, writing, playing piano, doping out my English.

Our brains are wired so that we want two things above all else: purpose and novelty
Purpose is at least partially fulfilled by providing the necessities of life. 60-85k a year is enough to provide sufficient necessities for almost everyone and their family in a Western country

Novelty is pretty widely and cheaply available. 60-85k a year is also enough to provide enough novelty for most people in a Western country
It's not how much money earns. It's How do you may use wit, though. And to get wit, must learn, learn and learn and practice that knowledge. As "Negro" Navarro says: "Never ends up learning". Ironically, Greats organizations as UNESCO create laws to slow down right to knowledge. It's a long story.
 

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tombstone blues
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Freedom is not tied to materialism. In fact, out current system and the skyrocketing depression across the board are happening because of materialism. Tie yourself to things and there is less freedom. Simple as that.
that's wrong though.

it's an essentially marxist critique and has been proven wrong again and again and again.

materialism is not causing depression. that is a fantasy. it has never been proven to even a limited degree.

it sounds good and like a lot of things that sound good it is dead wrong.

tying yourself to things does not lessen your freedom. that is another good-sounding dead wrong fantasy.

what if people were not tied to material things like cars? fine, they would be decreasing their freedom of movement and choice. private cars are the ultimate tools of increasing freedom. a person can get in their car and go wherever they want, whenever they want. they cannot be stopped. they have the power, the freedom. this is a freedom that simply did not exist for nearly all the humans that ever lived.

what about material things like homes? fine, not being "tied" to owning property = decreased freedom of ordering your own dwelling as you see fit. others have power over you that they would not have otherwise. that is the way it was for nearly all the humans that ever lived.

what about nice clothes, appliances, trinkets, whatever? fine, not being "tied" to owning them cuts off avenues of individual self expression and enjoyment. doesn't sound like maximum freedom to me.

the examples are endless. this materialism that allegedly lessens freedom is directly responsible for the increase in everyday freedom achieved over the last 150 years.

if people choose to not be tied to material possessions that is their choice and an exercise of their freedom as well. but choosing to be is a choice and an exercise of freedom as well. both ways offer different opportunities to think and act freely, and both ways contain different limitations on freedom.
 

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that's wrong though.

it's an essentially marxist critique and has been proven wrong again and again and again.

materialism is not causing depression. that is a fantasy. it has never been proven to even a limited degree.

it sounds good and like a lot of things that sound good it is dead wrong.

tying yourself to things does not lessen your freedom. that is another good-sounding dead wrong fantasy.

what if people were not tied to material things like cars? fine, they would be decreasing their freedom of movement and choice. private cars are the ultimate tools of increasing freedom. a person can get in their car and go wherever they want, whenever they want. they cannot be stopped. they have the power, the freedom. this is a freedom that simply did not exist for nearly all the humans that ever lived.

what about material things like homes? fine, not being "tied" to owning property = decreased freedom of ordering your own dwelling as you see fit. others have power over you that they would not have otherwise. that is the way it was for nearly all the humans that ever lived.

what about nice clothes, appliances, trinkets, whatever? fine, not being "tied" to owning them cuts off avenues of individual self expression and enjoyment. doesn't sound like maximum freedom to me.

the examples are endless. this materialism that allegedly lessens freedom is directly responsible for the increase in everyday freedom achieved over the last 150 years.

if people choose to not be tied to material possessions that is their choice and an exercise of their freedom as well. but choosing to be is a choice and an exercise of freedom as well. both ways offer different opportunities to think and act freely, and both ways contain different limitations on freedom.
Freedom was never increased by materialism. The fact you fling so strongly to materialism is the proof that your “choice” is hardly a choice. You attribute so much of your worth to things... what I “own” does mot define me. At all.
 

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The freedom to do anything comes with its own varying degree of responsibility. Ultimately freedom is an illusion, but not necessarily an ideal not worth working towards in some capacity.

For example, suicide is distasteful less for the result itself and more for the selfishness in one's failure to acknowledge the responsibility their very existence has for others.
 

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yea if you're working for materialistic things you've already lost.

those are perks at best, they aren't the foundation for the happiness. there are plenty of low income people who are at peace because they are grateful for what they already have.

envying what others have is what leads to depression.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
that's wrong though.

it's an essentially marxist critique and has been proven wrong again and again and again.
I don't consider me marxist cause I know about consequences. I don't enter into corporatism neighter. Wherer I am, would rather being of a middle point. Be happy with I have do and use it to improve my life.

materialism is not causing depression. that is a fantasy. it has never been proven to even a limited degree.
It's proven cause egocentrism, arrogance, individualism and selfishness.

it sounds good and like a lot of things that sound good it is dead wrong.
I know people who desires expensive things. How absurd people can be divided by status-quo. That's insane indivualism.

tying yourself to things does not lessen your freedom. that is another good-sounding dead wrong fantasy.
I've seen about many bussiness men who lost their hegemony because of their ambition; other ones prefers stay on their confort zone and being satisfied with their mediocre salesman roles. Maybe they reached success, but excellence is much different than that.

what if people were not tied to material things like cars? fine, they would be decreasing their freedom of movement and choice. private cars are the ultimate tools of increasing freedom. a person can get in their car and go wherever they want, whenever they want. they cannot be stopped. they have the power, the freedom. this is a freedom that simply did not exist for nearly all the humans that ever lived.
With great powers comes a great responsibility. Inconveinence is... Not everybody has develop skill ofrecking their responsibility.
 

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Do they have Krusty's Partially Gelatinated, Non-D
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I can wake up and do what ever the fuck I want within reason. I would say I’m pretty free.
 

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Freedom is being able to do almost anything you want compared to walking on eggshells in communist countries like China and North Korea so you don't get imprisoned for life, tortured, or executed for misdemeanors.

- Vic
 
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