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Greek God of Knowledge
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Well you said it didn't help the middle class, I was telling you it did so you're wrong there. You may be right about the avg but you aren't right saying it didn't help the middle class bc it helped a lot of us. Maybe bc we are public sector not private so the trickle down doesn't effect us, though I know guys in the private sector who are singing trumps praises bc of all the money they are making, not on stocks, but they are probably considered upper class.
If the average middle class person didn't benefit from the tax cuts, it didn't help the middle class. You can't just say "it helped me so it helped the middle class". The tax cuts weren't meant for you specifically.

So for example, one of the main aspects of the tax cuts (or so Trump hoped) was that wages from companies for employees would increase. That hasn't happened, not to the extent that Trump wanted. A lot of companies decided to use the money for something else. Amazon is arguably the most famous company to actually increase their wages, and you can argue that wasn't even due to the tax cuts, but rather extreme public criticism and constant employee complaints about the low pay.

Either way I got the answer to the question I asked, that this is all trumps fault and Obama has nothing to do with the negative drop the stock market is about to take. Just out of curiosity let's say something happens and the market climbs over the next year, can trump get some credit if that happens?? Just to be fair if it drops below say 18,000 I'll come back and say it's trumps fault and he should do something else.
It isn't all Trump's fault. But none of it can be blamed on Obama. He is no longer a factor in how things go from here on out with the economy. Trump has been in charge for two years by now. That's plenty of time to leave your footprint on something and Trump has chosen to do barely anything except ride the cocktails of Obama while not doing much to improve the weaknesses that are still within the system.
 

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If the average middle class person didn't benefit from the tax cuts, it didn't help the middle class. You can't just say "it helped me so it helped the middle class". The tax cuts weren't meant for you specifically.

So for example, one of the main aspects of the tax cuts (or so Trump hoped) was that wages from companies for employees would increase. That hasn't happened, not to the extent that Trump wanted. A lot of companies decided to use the money for something else. Amazon is arguably the most famous company to actually increase their wages, and you can argue that wasn't even due to the tax cuts, but rather extreme public criticism and constant employee complaints about the low pay.

It isn't all Trump's fault. But none of it can be blamed on Obama. He is no longer a factor in how things go from here on out with the economy. Trump has been in charge for two years by now. That's plenty of time to leave your footprint on something and Trump has chosen to do barely anything except ride the cocktails of Obama while not doing much to improve the weaknesses that are still within the system.
I get your point but you can't say it didn't help the middle class when it helped thousands of us in my state alone. That may not have been the intention or even the overall result but a lot of us were helped.

My whole point to the original question was really mocking both sides...conservatives are always saying it's trumps economy and Obama has nothing to do with or had nothing to do with the big stock gains, employment etc... While the democrats are saying it's still bc of Obama that the economy is doing good. I get not many of y'all are saying that just what I'm seeing in my social media feeds which I get is a small percentage.

But even the tail end f your post is a bit contradictory...it's Obama economy still bc trump has done little to improve the weakness in the system, so it's trumps fault that he isn't fixing obamas flaws in the system?
 

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tombstone blues
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Since no president has ever proven capable of resisting the urge to claim undeserved credit for the economy when it is doing well, they must shoulder the blame if it is not doing well even if that is not their fault either

And if they did refrain from claiming credit for a good economy, few would allow them to dodge blame for a bad one anyway. So why not claim credit, if credit there is to claim :draper2
 

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Well you said it didn't help the middle class, I was telling you it did so you're wrong there. You may be right about the avg but you aren't right saying it didn't help the middle class bc it helped a lot of us. Maybe bc we are public sector not private so the trickle down doesn't effect us, though I know guys in the private sector who are singing trumps praises bc of all the money they are making, not on stocks, but they are probably considered upper class.

Either way I got the answer to the question I asked, that this is all trumps fault and Obama has nothing to do with the negative drop the stock market is about to take. Just out of curiosity let's say something happens and the market climbs over the next year, can trump get some credit if that happens?? Just to be fair if it drops below say 18,000 I'll come back and say it's trumps fault and he should do something else.
It didn't help the middle class. Just because it helped you does not mean it helped the majority of the middle class. Again the average person in the middle class got a 2 cent raise. That is NOTHING. It did not help a lot of the middle class, it helped very few not the majority. Not sure what you don't understand about this. Just admit you were wrong and move on.

How exactly would it be Obama's fault for the drop in the stock market two years into Trumps presidency? If the economy skyrockets next year Trump gets all the credit, why wouldn't he?

lets try this again.

The economy and unemployment were doing great when Trump took over, So that is why Obama gets credit for most of Trumps first year because Trump just kept moving in the same direction under Obama's same policies riding his coattails, but once Trump starting undoing everything Obama did, and made his own policies those take about 8 months to a year to take effect thus why the economy does not start to feel the effects fo Trumps decisions until the beginning of this year.

Also the reason why Obama gets more credit for the unemployment rate is simple. Obama is what started it going down, Trump is just continuing that trend, yet at a much slower rate.

When Obama took office unemployment was at 7.80, and it was on its way up from 4.7 since 2006. So in Obamas two years the trend continued but he slowed it down, it peaked at 9.8 in Jan 2010. When Obama left office it was at 4.8. So Obama dropped the UE rate 5 points. Trump had UE already going down and when he started it was at 4.8 and its now at 3.7 which is a 1.1 % drop still going in the same direction Obama had it going.

Trump loves to brag how under him UE is the lowest it has ever been but under Obama it was the lowest as well and it just kept doing down under Trump but again UE is slowing but to be fair that is going to happen the lower the number gets.

But you cant think for a second the reason UE is going down is more because of Trump than Obama.

But if it starts going back up before the the bad policies Trump starts to do then its all on Trump.
 

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It didn't help the middle class. Just because it helped you does not mean it helped the majority of the middle class. Again the average person in the middle class got a 2 cent raise. That is NOTHING. It did not help a lot of the middle class, it helped very few not the majority. Not sure what you don't understand about this. Just admit you were wrong and move on.

How exactly would it be Obama's fault for the drop in the stock market two years into Trumps presidency? If the economy skyrockets next year Trump gets all the credit, why wouldn't he?

lets try this again.

The economy and unemployment were doing great when Trump took over, So that is why Obama gets credit for most of Trumps first year because Trump just kept moving in the same direction under Obama's same policies riding his coattails, but once Trump starting undoing everything Obama did, and made his own policies those take about 8 months to a year to take effect thus why the economy does not start to feel the effects fo Trumps decisions until the beginning of this year.

Also the reason why Obama gets more credit for the unemployment rate is simple. Obama is what started it going down, Trump is just continuing that trend, yet at a much slower rate.

When Obama took office unemployment was at 7.80, and it was on its way up from 4.7 since 2006. So in Obamas two years the trend continued but he slowed it down, it peaked at 9.8 in Jan 2010. When Obama left office it was at 4.8. So Obama dropped the UE rate 5 points. Trump had UE already going down and when he started it was at 4.8 and its now at 3.7 which is a 1.1 % drop still going in the same direction Obama had it going.

Trump loves to brag how under him UE is the lowest it has ever been but under Obama it was the lowest as well and it just kept doing down under Trump but again UE is slowing but to be fair that is going to happen the lower the number gets.

But you cant think for a second the reason UE is going down is more because of Trump than Obama.

But if it starts going back up before the the bad policies Trump starts to do then its all on Trump.
TL;DR you win I'm out
 

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tombstone blues
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If the average middle class person didn't benefit from the tax cuts, it didn't help the middle class. You can't just say "it helped me so it helped the middle class". The tax cuts weren't meant for you specifically.

So for example, one of the main aspects of the tax cuts (or so Trump hoped) was that wages from companies for employees would increase. That hasn't happened, not to the extent that Trump wanted. A lot of companies decided to use the money for something else. Amazon is arguably the most famous company to actually increase their wages, and you can argue that wasn't even due to the tax cuts, but rather extreme public criticism and constant employee complaints about the low pay.



It isn't all Trump's fault. But none of it can be blamed on Obama. He is no longer a factor in how things go from here on out with the economy. Trump has been in charge for two years by now. That's plenty of time to leave your footprint on something and Trump has chosen to do barely anything except ride the cocktails of Obama while not doing much to improve the weaknesses that are still within the system.
While Amazon increased their minimum age they took away the stocks they gave out each year as bonus's because their stocks are worth more to them in the long run so they fucked over their workers even more.
 

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And you wonder why you get negged

sorry if you can't deal in facts

That is always your downfall
No you moron I could have understood a neg for that, not for me asking a general question to someone else that had nothing to do with you. Just for future reference, should I expect you to respond to everything I post in this? You know out of all my negs you are responsible for all but one? And evidently you neg anyone who posts something different to your views, but im supposed to believe you're tolerant? What a load of crap!!

And I haven't disputed any "facts" you have posted. Mostly bc your facts have nothing to do with anything I have asked about. Was it a fact when you said tax cuts didn't help middle class? No that wasn't a fact. Had you said it didn't help majority of middle class, that would have been fine, then you can't even admit you messed that up, that's why I didn't read whatever random crap you posted bc it prob had nothing to do with anything. I just wanted out your vortex which you've somehow managed to suck me back in to again.
 

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No you moron I could have understood a neg for that, not for me asking a general question to someone else that had nothing to do with you. Just for future reference, should I expect you to respond to everything I post in this? You know out of all my negs you are responsible for all but one? And evidently you neg anyone who posts something different to your views, but im supposed to believe you're tolerant? What a load of crap!!

And I haven't disputed any "facts" you have posted. Mostly bc your facts have nothing to do with anything I have asked about. Was it a fact when you said tax cuts didn't help middle class? No that wasn't a fact. Had you said it didn't help majority of middle class, that would have been fine, then you can't even admit you messed that up, that's why I didn't read whatever random crap you posted bc it prob had nothing to do with anything. I just wanted out your vortex which you've somehow managed to suck me back in to again.
Your trolling is getting old.

My facts had everything to do with what you asked, I gave you a perfect example about Obama getting credit and Trump getting blame and you come back with a post saying you didnt even bother reading.

And yes its a fact the tax cuts did not help the middle class, AGAIN the average person in the middle class got a two cent raise, that means the vast majority of the middle class was not helped. Just because it helped a few does not mean it helped the middle class. Teh middle class is more people than just the few you work with. Not sure how many times this has to be an example to you.
 

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He has taken credit for an economy that Obama built numerous times.
Trump has taken actions that may have an adverse effect on the economy.
This is all true.

But...

It would be a lot more difficult for Republicans to wreck the economy if Democrats actually built a solid economy when they have the chance. Namely, because if Democrats did that, Republicans wouldn't get this much power in the first place. It wasn't the Republicans running the show when the criminal bankers were given trillions in bailout money while millions got kicked out of their homes. It wasn't the Republicans who decided not to prosecute any of the criminal bankers who helped crash the economy a decade ago.

If Democrats are elected into power, fail to represent the people who put them there and represent the oligarchs who run this country instead, then yeah, they share some of the blame when a troglodyte like Trump gets elected and wrecks everything.
 

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Your trolling is getting old.

My facts had everything to do with what you asked, I gave you a perfect example about Obama getting credit and Trump getting blame and you come back with a post saying you didnt even bother reading.

And yes its a fact the tax cuts did not help the middle class, AGAIN the average person in the middle class got a two cent raise, that means the vast majority of the middle class was not helped. Just because it helped a few does not mean it helped the middle class. Teh middle class is more people than just the few you work with. Not sure how many times this has to be an example to you.
And like I said I literally asked for none of that. My original post was asking if some people say that trump is just taking credit for obamas economy, could Obama get some blame if it tanks. Headliner said no, which was who I was talking to in the first place before you inserted yourself. Headliner and I could have had a decent convo prob without your input.

And lastly, this is what makes me think you can't read, I literally said the tax cuts helped me and the people i work with but we MAY BE THE EXCEPTIONS. You were so eager to "show me who's boss" you went off on another one of your immature tirades and completely bypassed that. And can I get your definition of trolling, you tell me every post is a troll from me but I don't think it is or it's not intended to be, so give me your definition of trolling so I don't have to see that word on the majority of your responses. Also, are you going to respond to every post of mine in here even if not directed at you?
 

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tombstone blues
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Demon Sam Neill wants your soul, @blaird! Don't get sucked back to the event horizon! Morpheus sacrificed himself to stop the hell-spawn from entering our universe, don't make his sacrifice be in vain~
 

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No you moron I could have understood a neg for that, not for me asking a general question to someone else that had nothing to do with you. Just for future reference, should I expect you to respond to everything I post in this? You know out of all my negs you are responsible for all but one? And evidently you neg anyone who posts something different to your views, but im supposed to believe you're tolerant? What a load of crap!!

And I haven't disputed any "facts" you have posted. Mostly bc your facts have nothing to do with anything I have asked about. Was it a fact when you said tax cuts didn't help middle class? No that wasn't a fact. Had you said it didn't help majority of middle class, that would have been fine, then you can't even admit you messed that up, that's why I didn't read whatever random crap you posted bc it prob had nothing to do with anything. I just wanted out your vortex which you've somehow managed to suck me back in to again.
Your trolling is getting old.

My facts had everything to do with what you asked, I gave you a perfect example about Obama getting credit and Trump getting blame and you come back with a post saying you didnt even bother reading.

And yes its a fact the tax cuts did not help the middle class, AGAIN the average person in the middle class got a two cent raise, that means the vast majority of the middle class was not helped. Just because it helped a few does not mean it helped the middle class. Teh middle class is more people than just the few you work with. Not sure how many times this has to be an example to you.
He’s not trolling you dude. Just because there’s a difference of opinions doesn’t mean that he’s trolling you haha. Wtf
 

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He’s not trolling you dude. Just because there’s a difference of opinions doesn’t mean that he’s trolling you haha. Wtf
And I don't really have a different opinion. I asked a question to someone else and he jumps in with his "facts" (which a couple were wrong but I'm not even gonna bring that up). I dont remember saying Obama did nothing for the economy but here comes BM with "facts" I didn't ask for. This is why it's hard to talk politics with people, headliner and holly seem like they could have adult conversations. BM hits you with facts that aren't related and has to declare himself the winner like a 12 year old. It's his way or he's gonna neg everything you say.

Demon Sam Neill wants your soul, @blaird! Don't get sucked back to the event horizon! Morpheus sacrificed himself to stop the hell-spawn from entering our universe, don't make his sacrifice be in vain~
Evidently I took the wrong colored pill again...I don't know how he does it but I keep coming back for more.
 

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He’s not trolling you dude. Just because there’s a difference of opinions doesn’t mean that he’s trolling you haha. Wtf
Calling someone a moron and saying, I didn't bother reading your reply because it was too long is trolling.


And I don't really have a different opinion. I asked a question to someone else and he jumps in with his "facts" (which a couple were wrong but I'm not even gonna bring that up). I dont remember saying Obama did nothing for the economy but here comes BM with "facts" I didn't ask for. This is why it's hard to talk politics with people, headliner and holly seem like they could have adult conversations. BM hits you with facts that aren't related and has to declare himself the winner like a 12 year old. It's his way or he's gonna neg everything you say.
None of my facts were wrong. We already went over that. You don't like talking politics with people like me, headliner and holly because you don't like facts and evidence. You make a BS claim and get show all the facts and evidence and you stll deny them like you are right now. You even have it explained to you then you say yeah i won't even bother reading that. You are the one who doesn't like having an adult conversation

what exactly facts were not related to the debate? Just inform yourself better and things like this won't happen.



His main sources of news are The Young Turks and Vox. Maybe some John Oliver sprinkled in.

Try to understand.
And your point is? sorry you dont like to deal in facts. Then again you defend Trump who had lied over 8,000 times in year years and watch fox news
 

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Calling someone a moron and saying, I didn't bother reading your reply because it was too long is trolling.




None of my facts were wrong. We already went over that. You don't like talking politics with people like me, headliner and holly because you don't like facts and evidence. You make a BS claim and get show all the facts and evidence and you stll deny them like you are right now. You even have it explained to you then you say yeah i won't even bother reading that. You are the one who doesn't like having an adult conversation

what exactly facts were not related to the debate? Just inform yourself better and things like this won't happen.





And your point is? sorry you dont like to deal in facts. Then again you defend Trump who had lied over 8,000 times in year years and watch fox news
It's sad I have to it this way but you bypass so much...

Yes two of your facts were wrong, tax cuts helped the middle class, maybe not he majority but some yes, here I am, a middle class person telling you I got helped as well as people I work with, do you deny this? (Wont answer this I bet)
Secondly, the market has never closed down 1600, there was a 1600 drop but rebounded around 500 points that afternoon to close down around 1170...this is all prob semantics though. I also found the definition of "stock market crash" and the big drops/dips don't fit into but yet you keep calling it a crash, again prob semantics.

What bs claim did I make? I remember asking questions to headliner that he answered, and I clearly stated I would like to debate with headliner and holly I don't like to debate with you. You makeup too much crap that has nothing to do with anything. I didn't need to see what good Obama had done bc I didn't ask what good Obama had done or claimed he had done nothing good.

What kind of person keeps track with how many times the president lies? So immature. I love having adult conversations but I'm not sure you're an adult, and I'm not the only one. If you go back and look at all our convos/debates, it all has to be you're way, if not neg and keep arguing. I was willing to meet in the middle in our gun debate but that wasn't good enough, has to go all your way no matter how nutso that is.

I literally asked if Obama could be blamed if he's still getting credit for the economy. Holly and headliner offered reasonable answers, you hit me with all the stuff Obama did, the fact that you think that relates to anything I asked or didn't ask should be surprising but seems to be par for u.
 

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It's sad I have to it this way but you bypass so much...

Yes two of your facts were wrong, tax cuts helped the middle class, maybe not he majority but some yes, here I am, a middle class person telling you I got helped as well as people I work with, do you deny this? (Wont answer this I bet)
Secondly, the market has never closed down 1600, there was a 1600 drop but rebounded around 500 points that afternoon to close down around 1170...this is all prob semantics though. I also found the definition of "stock market crash" and the big drops/dips don't fit into but yet you keep calling it a crash, again prob semantics.

What bs claim did I make? I remember asking questions to headliner that he answered, and I clearly stated I would like to debate with headliner and holly I don't like to debate with you. You makeup too much crap that has nothing to do with anything. I didn't need to see what good Obama had done bc I didn't ask what good Obama had done or claimed he had done nothing good.

What kind of person keeps track with how many times the president lies? So immature. I love having adult conversations but I'm not sure you're an adult, and I'm not the only one. If you go back and look at all our convos/debates, it all has to be you're way, if not neg and keep arguing. I was willing to meet in the middle in our gun debate but that wasn't good enough, has to go all your way no matter how nutso that is.

I literally asked if Obama could be blamed if he's still getting credit for the economy. Holly and headliner offered reasonable answers, you hit me with all the stuff Obama did, the fact that you think that relates to anything I asked or didn't ask should be surprising but seems to be par for u.

Why do you keep harping on a broken record, no the tax cuts did not help the middle class. Just because it helped YOU and a few people you know does not mean it helped the middle CLASS. Using your logic, if the tax cuts gave just one person in the middle class a raise that means it helped the middle class, that is not how it works. I am not denying you got a raise at all, I freely believe you, but AGAIN just because YOU and some people you work with got a raise does not mean the tax cuts helped teh middle class. If something does not help 99% of the middle class, you cant pretend it helped.

For example, if you are building a house, and you build all of it with your friends, then I come along and just nail in the last flood board in the kitchen, are you really going to claim oh I helped you build the house?

using your logic, oh I did. That is not how it works

A drop is a drop but if you want to say it didn't end there that is a fair point. But its still showing how volatile the market is. Also, I keep saying we are headed toward a crash. I also said we are in a bear market which is true.

What exactly did I make up that had nothing to do with the conversation? You asked a question and I gave you an answer which directly answered your question. You just didn't like the answer you got.

And here we go ago with BS like this, "but I'm not sure you're an adult" you wonder why you get negged lol.

How is it immature to know how many times the president has lied. Guess you don't like to fact check and there is the problem.

I deal in facts and logic, something you don't seem to like. Its funny complain about getting negged but make comments like this "I'm not sure you're an adult"

I just think its funny with all the trolling the Trump supports do on here like Berzerker's Beard and deepelemblues you try to call me out lol. But that's right they have your same opinion so its ok when they do it.

if you don't think all the info I gave you relates to what you were asking, then you are just not paying attention.
 

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He’s not trolling you dude. Just because there’s a difference of opinions doesn’t mean that he’s trolling you haha. Wtf
Calling someone a moron and saying, I didn't bother reading your reply because it was too long is trolling.


And I don't really have a different opinion. I asked a question to someone else and he jumps in with his "facts" (which a couple were wrong but I'm not even gonna bring that up). I dont remember saying Obama did nothing for the economy but here comes BM with "facts" I didn't ask for. This is why it's hard to talk politics with people, headliner and holly seem like they could have adult conversations. BM hits you with facts that aren't related and has to declare himself the winner like a 12 year old. It's his way or he's gonna neg everything you say.
None of my facts were wrong. We already went over that. You don't like talking politics with people like me, headliner and holly because you don't like facts and evidence. You make a BS claim and get show all the facts and evidence and you stll deny them like you are right now. You even have it explained to you then you say yeah i won't even bother reading that. You are the one who doesn't like having an adult conversation

what exactly facts were not related to the debate? Just inform yourself better and things like this won't happen.



His main sources of news are The Young Turks and Vox. Maybe some John Oliver sprinkled in.

Try to understand.
And your point is? sorry you dont like to deal in facts. Then again you defend Trump who had lied over 8,000 times in year years and watch fox news
Since we’re dealing in facts, where are the facts that trump has lied 8,000 times? Can I neg rep you if you can’t find proof of 8,000 lies?
 
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