Wrestling Forum banner
1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,017 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I read recently that WM19 had one of the lowest Wrestlemania buyrates of all time around 560k when most Wrestlemanias did 900K+. Considering that was Stone Cold's swan song do you think they should have hyped it being Austin's last match? I know I didn't order it but if I had known it was Austin's last match I would have.

It really had a pretty good card with HBK/Jericho, Angle/Lesnar and Austin/Rock III I was pretty shocked it did so poorly.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
605 Posts
It is one of the best Wrestlemanias of all time and had a unique vibe to it.

The reason it was bought so poorly was because of Brock Lesnar being in the main event at the time (he was still new and didn't have THAT big of a name at the time... nobody outside pro wrestling knew who he was and a lot of older fans didn't like a guy so new being in the main event at wrestlemania), nobody wanted to see Hogan and McMahon fight.... while the storyline was ok and they are two big names everyone knew both of them were too old to put on a good match, and Booker T was a midcarder at the time and was supposed to beat HHH to elevate himself to the main event, but still... a midcarder fighting for a world title at WM.

Every match except the Hogan-Vince one was pretty awesome. Jericho and Michaels threw on one hell of a program, the HHH-Booker T match was solid, the Rock and Austin good as usual, and Lesnar-Angle goes down as one of the best matches of all time with the most ridiculous botch of all time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,248 Posts
Yes because Booker/Triple H, Hogan/McMahon and Angle/Lesnar were not main events the masses wanted to pay to see. Also Austin/Rock for the third time without any kind of hype or story was doomed to fail financially compared to years past.

Blaming the end of the Boom period, or the "weak" Seattle market is ridiculous because with the talent under contract, the buyrate should have been similar, if not bigger than Mania X-7 or X-8.

Maybe with a card like this:

Stone Cold vs Hulk Hogan
The Rock vs Goldberg
Triple H vs Brock Lesnar for World Title
Kurt Angle vs Chris Benoit for WWE Title
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,017 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yes because Booker/Triple H, Hogan/McMahon and Angle/Lesnar were not main events the masses wanted to pay to see. Also Austin/Rock for the third time without any kind of hype or story was doomed to fail financially compared to years past.

Blaming the end of the Boom period, or the "weak" Seattle market is ridiculous because with the talent under contract, the buyrate should have been similar, if not bigger than Mania X-7 or X-8.

Maybe with a card like this:

Stone Cold vs Hulk Hogan
The Rock vs Goldberg
Triple H vs Brock Lesnar for World Title
Kurt Angle vs Chris Benoit for WWE Title
You should go on Youtube and watch the Raw's before Wrestlemania 19. The Stone Cold/Rock feud was actually better than ever. Rock was doing his heel shtick and did his first Rock concert and talking trash and it was very entertaining. I'm really not sure what else they could have done to build that match up. But since it was the third time they had met at Wrestlemania maybe people just weren't going to pay for it.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
8,266 Posts
I think this is one of the best Mania's of all time. I kind of go back and forth between 17 and 19 as best but it's a shame this card didn't do better with 5 main events.

I think a lot of people aren't giving credit to McMahon/Hogan which was a good brawl. Definitely not a technical masterpiece but it was fun.

Why didn't the show sell? I'm not entirely sure. I do think that Angle/Lesnar wasn't the strongest main event they could have thrown on but Lesnar was still pretty over and so was Angle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,361 Posts
You should go on Youtube and watch the Raw's before Wrestlemania 19. The Stone Cold/Rock feud was actually better than ever. Rock was doing his heel shtick and did his first Rock concert and talking trash and it was very entertaining. I'm really not sure what else they could have done to build that match up. But since it was the third time they had met at Wrestlemania maybe people just weren't going to pay for it.
LOL not even close to the build up of WM 15
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,017 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Well that's a matter of opinion and maybe my opinion isn't popular but to me heel Rock 2003 was the best Rock there's ever been. Rock was not quite there yet in early 99 but got there soon after WM15.

But the point of the thread is I think if they built 19 as Austin's last match it would have gotten way more buys.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
18,248 Posts
In hindsight yeah it was a pretty damn great Mania and naturally the card looked stacked as fuck but when you rewind back to 2003, yeah it didn't really look as great.

Hogan/Vince was just an old guy who shouldn't be in the ring vs another old guy who shouldn't be in the ring. A lot of people were probably expected a Bret/Vince style of match from this and instead got a pretty decent brawl.

Rock/Austin had been done twice already and with Rock basically not with the company anymore people's interest wasn't as high as it was for their previous two matches. Plus the build for th most part was pretty weak. Had we known that Austin would have retired & it would be Rock's last 1-1 match for 9 years after this i'm sure people's interest would have been a hell of a lot higher.

Lesnar/Angle as mentioned people was unsure on Lesnar closing the show despite being their for only a year and damn near doing everything of worth within the company.

HHH/Booker was just meh. People loved Booker but not enough to invest heavily into the show.

Jericho/HBK was probably the only match that could have had really big hype. Then you had the little matches which on paper looked good none were ever gonna sell a show.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,549 Posts
Yes because Booker/Triple H, Hogan/McMahon and Angle/Lesnar were not main events the masses wanted to pay to see. Also Austin/Rock for the third time without any kind of hype or story was doomed to fail financially compared to years past.

Blaming the end of the Boom period, or the "weak" Seattle market is ridiculous because with the talent under contract, the buyrate should have been similar, if not bigger than Mania X-7 or X-8.

Maybe with a card like this:

Stone Cold vs Hulk Hogan
The Rock vs Goldberg
Triple H vs Brock Lesnar for World Title
Kurt Angle vs Chris Benoit for WWE Title
If WWE had Goldberg for WM 19 there's only one match to do. Austin v Goldberg

Austin v Goldberg
Rock v Michaels for the WWE Championship

I agree with the OP though. If you're going to do Rock v Austin 3 it had to be career v career. They had to make that match as important as the previous two and when they didn't the rest of the card was deflated with it.

HHH v Booker also shares the blame. A mid card WWE championship match is inexcusable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,276 Posts
They couldn't do HHH vs Lesnar with the brand split in full effect. They could have done Austin/Hogan X8, Rock/Hogan at XIX(along with Goldberg/Austin) and Vince/Hogan at XX.

As for buys, I think people are underestimating how Katie Vick, HLA and the gay wedding turned people off at that point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,514 Posts
It was a great show but yeah, they dropped the ball. So many opportunities to have better matches and they just screwed up.

Hogan/Austin should've happened over Vince/Hogan which was simply not big enough to headline. Rock/HBK should have been worked out in some way (it's business, if they had pushed for it backstage, I'm sure both would have agreed to work together). Brock/Angle was fine as a way to put Brock over and give a match many have wanted to see but the other World Title match needed more focus instead of being some throaway midcard thing. Undertaker could have had better booking by having a match with Benoit instead of sticking them in two tag matches as if they didn't fit anywhere else when a match against one another would have been perfect.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,248 Posts
If WWE had Goldberg for WM 19 there's only one match to do. Austin v Goldberg
At that point noone knew that this would be Austin's last match, so I think their long term plan was to do Austin/Goldberg at 20.

They couldn't do HHH vs Lesnar with the brand split in full effect.
That would not have been an issue. Lesnar wins the Rumble and chooses the World Champion Triple H to face at Mania. They did the same thing a year later with Benoit.
 

·
The Cornerstone Of The Corner Store
Joined
·
3,164 Posts
At that point noone knew that this would be Austin's last match, so I think their long term plan was to do Austin/Goldberg at 20.



That would not have been an issue. Lesnar wins the Rumble and chooses the World Champion Triple H to face at Mania. They did the same thing a year later with Benoit.
Was the Royal Rumble winner in 2003 allowed to choose which title to go after? I can't remember, but it might've been if a SD wrestler wins he gets a WWE title shot, and if a Raw wrestler wins he gets a World title shot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,248 Posts
Was the Royal Rumble winner in 2003 allowed to choose which title to go after? I can't remember, but it might've been if a SD wrestler wins he gets a WWE title shot, and if a Raw wrestler wins he gets a World title shot.
They said the winner will challenge for his brands world title. But they could easily just have said the winner gets a title show and have him switch shows the next night on Raw.

And whether or not SD was the wrestling show and Raw the entertainment show, Brock belonged on Raw, the flagship show, carrying the company on his shoulders.

Then build to a babyface vs babyface Lesnar/Goldberg program during the summer, turn Lesnar heel and make Goldberg the face of the company, if fans chose him over Lesnar.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,549 Posts
At that point noone knew that this would be Austin's last match, so I think their long term plan was to do Austin/Goldberg at 20.



That would not have been an issue. Lesnar wins the Rumble and chooses the World Champion Triple H to face at Mania. They did the same thing a year later with Benoit.
If Goldberg Rock at Mania happened before Goldberg Austin fans would have went berserk. Goldberg knew what his money match was and that's why a deal was never agreed upon. If that's Austin lobbying for a match at 19 it happens, but really Austin only returned to go out the right way and that's why he was just going to job to Rock or HHH and dip.

No offense to Rock but nobody cared about Rock Goldberg. His match was Michaels but Rock hated him because Shawn was an unprofessional ****.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,430 Posts
It was a great show but yeah, they dropped the ball. So many opportunities to have better matches and they just screwed up.

Hogan/Austin should've happened over Vince/Hogan which was simply not big enough to headline. Rock/HBK should have been worked out in some way (it's business, if they had pushed for it backstage, I'm sure both would have agreed to work together). Brock/Angle was fine as a way to put Brock over and give a match many have wanted to see but the other World Title match needed more focus instead of being some throaway midcard thing. Undertaker could have had better booking by having a match with Benoit instead of sticking them in two tag matches as if they didn't fit anywhere else when a match against one another would have been perfect.
:clap:clap:clap:clap
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
I think the hype behind Wrestlemania has been completely changed. Wrestlemania nowadays is all that matters in Wrestling. While at the time, it was the end of all major feuds, it wasn't at a time where social media was a big deal and the WWE didn't advertise or push it as much as they do now. Also, wrestling was beginning to lose its appeal at the time, even though it's a major crap shoot now. To people nowadays, Wrestlemania is a just a social event for twitter, it's not about the end of feuds or anything. Why do you think the last three have been so successful besides The Rock? Wrestlemania has become popular, even people who don't care about Wrestling all year will take millions of pictures of themselves at the events and talk about how pretty the lights were.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,640 Posts
The card was weak when you consider how many greats were on the roster.

This is how I would have booked it:
Austin vs. Hogan
HBK vs. Rock
World Heavyweight Championship: HHH vs. Lesnar
WWE Championship: Angle vs. Benoit
Undertaker vs. Jericho
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,371 Posts
That's my 2nd fav Mania of all time and I wouldn't really change a thing tbh because I enjoyed the show. All the big matches delivered, even Hogan/Vince was a fun match. Taker could've had a bigger match, that's about the only thing I'd change. I wouldn't have been opposed to seeing Rock/HBK and Hogan/Austin but its pointless speculating since those matches just weren't possible. They were never on the table due to Austin's unwillingness to work Hogan and Rock wasn't down to work with HBK either.

BTW, the buyrate was poor partly because the business was on a downward trend, they made the fatal mistake of promoting Vince/Hogan as the headlining match, the build up for Angle/Lesnar wasn't good and nobody really knew that would be Austin's final match so it wasn't advertised as such. Meltzer had said they should've done the sports build up for Angle/Lesnar like they did for Rock/Lesnar @ SS showcasing the video packages of them training and all that shit which was a big reason Rock/Lesnar @ SS did great business. In the final segment on the final RAW before the show, they also decided to air replays of the Lesnar/Angle and Vince/Hogan angles and it resulted in a huge loss + the lowest rated quarter on a live RAW in 6 years.

RAW 3/24/03 breakdown from the Observer said:
Raw on 3/24 ended up doing a 3.44 rating, the lowest since football season ended and on the final Raw before Wrestlemania.

Internally, people are crediting the war for the low number, but that belies the huge turn-off as the show was going on which would have nothing to do with the war. The promised Rock concert, which would have worked years ago, is not what the audience wants as a main event. The concert with the promised Austin run in only drew a 3.56 quarter and 4.74 million viewers, which was only an increase of 365,000 fans from the RVD/Kane vs Dudleys match, but still a poor showing.

Airing replays of SD of the Vince/Hogan angle as well as Lesnar/Angle, because a lot of markets had preempted SD because of the war coverage, was a disaster with the closing quarter doing a 2.56 rating, the lowest rated quarter for a live Raw in about 6 years.Those repeat segments made the difference between the show doing a 3.54 rating and a 3.44 rating.

There was a steady rejection throughout the show as the highest rated quarter, with a 3.85 rating and 5.29 million viewers was Steiner vs Christian which gained 244,000 viewers from the previous quarter. The angle where Morely gave himself part of the tag titles and set up the Raw match for Mania lost 472,000 viewers during a usual growth time slot. Bookdust vs Flair and HHH lost 239,000 viewers in a usual quarter that averages solid gains. The Jericho interview with HBK added 79,000 viewers as the only bright spot late in the show. A Rock interview with Bischoff lost 271,000 viewers and the RVD/Kane vs Dudleys match lost 17,000 viewers.

The big loss was the replays of the Hogan/Vince and Angle/Lesnar angles, which lost 1,217,000 viewers, or 26% of the audience.
If Goldberg Rock at Mania happened before Goldberg Austin fans would have went berserk. Goldberg knew what his money match was and that's why a deal was never agreed upon. If that's Austin lobbying for a match at 19 it happens, but really Austin only returned to go out the right way and that's why he was just going to job to Rock or HHH and dip.

No offense to Rock but nobody cared about Rock Goldberg. His match was Michaels but Rock hated him because Shawn was an unprofessional ****.
Uhh, this isn't true at all. Goldberg/Rock was always the plan for WM 19. Rock even talked about it in an interview in late 02. Goldberg also did a webchat in December 02 and was asked whether him vs Rock was going down at WM and also said he'd rather face Rock than Austin.

The reason a deal wasn't agreed upon was the following:

The following news is derived and re-written from the Torch Newsletter.

Big changes in the negotiation between Bill Goldberg and WWE. WWE is apparently pushing for Goldberg to work 10 dates per month, basically working a regular schedule with the company while Goldberg himself is only interested in the two big paydays - WrestleMania and one more PPV match to follow. In addition to that, Goldberg is telling WWE who he will and will not take a job to. Those who he will not job to are Triple H and Brock Lesnar.

WWE is looking to book Goldberg vs. Rock at WrestleMania, which everyone is aware of at this point, followed by Goldberg vs. Hulk Hogan, and Goldberg in matches against Steve Austin, Kurt Angle, Kevin Nash, and The Undertaker.

Due to the fact that no deal has been reached between both sides thus far, WWE has two plans prepared. One, have storylines ready for Goldberg if the deal does come through, and the second being book for storylines without Goldberg if the deal falls flat. That would seem obvious to most, but with WWE's reputation of booking on the fly, it's good that they have their game plan ready with or without Bill Goldberg.
- Torch
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top