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But no us televised promotion have ran a serious in-ring approach since 1984.

There is a universe sized gulf between the in-ring style of the 1950s guys like Thesz and Buddy Rodgers and say Hulk Hogan vs Ultimate Warrior or Undertaker. They couldn't be considered same form of entertainment even, Thesz and Rodgers is closer to modern mma.

I know some hardcore fans hate Indy style but that's far far closer to Hogan/Warrior/Sting/Undertaker/Flair cartoon stuff than it is to the Thesz/Lewis/Rodgers shoot style.
I'm biased I will admit but I was thinking more 80's Mid South meets early 90's WCW than Thesz or UWF International. Not after watching Brock vs Cain. Just minor details like cutting out spinning DDT's, more emphasis on psychology and outlawing closed fists. Dynamite Kid and Bret Hart were the masters of the 'liitle details' approach that I feel would have benefitted them in the long term. As you describe, WWE has the monopoly on semi replaced cartoon larger than life characters with cartoony indie style athleticism.

AEW has been very inconsistent in some ways. They have Cody, Arn, a ranking system, time limits, statistics etc. Yet Nick Jackson takes a beating from 4 men and sells it for a 30 seconds.
 

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Ok boomer. Way to prove you are the one that is out of touch because you have nothing left.
No. I just don't engage with morons that use idiotic "insults" that were in fashion 6 months ago ... and use them incorrectly, at that lol

A "boomer", in this scenario would be the one stuck in their ways and refusing to accept change in the industry. Y'know, like ... just to give the first example that springs to mind ... Jim Cornette. If the best you have is "Well that's your opinion, but this is mine", I think it's your discussion chops that are lacking.

You go back to screaming into the void. Some people have better things to do than argue on the internet.
 

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Cornette is a great listen. Obviously I don't expect the people who love the non-stop flip flop action to agree, but that's just awful to watch, imo. I don't see it with Omega. He's just simply not that good. There's at least 20 people in WWE alone that are bigger stars than him. He's bland.

And the Young Bucks? Jeez, make a top 50 tag teams of all time and they get nowhere close.
 

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No. I just don't engage with morons that use idiotic "insults" that were in fashion 6 months ago ... and use them incorrectly, at that lol

A "boomer", in this scenario would be the one stuck in their ways and refusing to accept change in the industry. Y'know, like ... just to give the first example that springs to mind ... Jim Cornette. If the best you have is "Well that's your opinion, but this is mine", I think it's your discussion chops that are lacking.

You go back to screaming into the void. Some people have better things to do than argue on the internet.
“I don’t argue with kids on the internet.”
(argues with kid on the internet)

Ok boomer.

Cornette is a great listen. Obviously I don't expect the people who love the non-stop flip flop action to agree, but that's just awful to watch, imo. I don't see it with Omega. He's just simply not that good. There's at least 20 people in WWE alone that are bigger stars than him. He's bland.

And the Young Bucks? Jeez, make a top 50 tag teams of all time and they get nowhere close.
Hot take: There are no less than five tag teams on SmackDown right now that are better than The Young Bucks. The Usos, The New Day, The Revival, Cesaro/Nakamura, Ziggler/Roode.
 

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But no us televised promotion have ran a serious in-ring approach since 1984.
Whaaaa?

- WCW before Hogan and from about 1996-1998/1999 was generally pretty serious. Granted they had a few goofy characters (Dungeon Of Doom, Glacier, Robocop) the main events were serious stories that were realistic in their approach. The nWo became a huge deal because of just how serious and realistic it was and the silly shit was generally kept to a segment or two a week.

- I'd argue TNA for the majority of it's life was pretty serious also. They didn't do a whole lot of exposing the business in their peak and offered a more serious and realistic alternative to what WWE was doing at the time. I was a long time TNA fan and I remember the only time I was really insulted was when Matt Hardy became "broken" and fought his brother with drones and shot explosives at him. Now they do really stupid comedy shit all the time and book intergender stuff but for the entirety of Dixie's run it was generally serious wrestling.

- I don't follow ROH anymore but when I did their style was always quite serious also. That might have changed as it's been a few years since I was actively following.

- Hell, you could even argue certain time periods in the WWE were super serious. I don't remember too much silliness from like 01-04/05 from the WWE.

I assume this post is going to have people saying "On TNA June 4th, 2005 AJ Styles wore a turkey suit to the ring and wrestled in it!" and you all are probably right. I'm talking general tone of these shows though. I'd say AEW has done more comedy and exposing of the business than anyone on national television in a long time (Maybe ever)
 

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Lets go to the old mill anyway, get some cider!
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Cornette is a great listen. Obviously I don't expect the people who love the non-stop flip flop action to agree, but that's just awful to watch, imo. I don't see it with Omega. He's just simply not that good. There's at least 20 people in WWE alone that are bigger stars than him. He's bland.

And the Young Bucks? Jeez, make a top 50 tag teams of all time and they get nowhere close.
Could you indulge me with your list of 20 talents in WWE better than Kenny? Would love a good laugh.
 

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Whaaaa?

- WCW before Hogan and from about 1996-1998/1999 was generally pretty serious. Granted they had a few goofy characters (Dungeon Of Doom, Glacier, Robocop) the main events were serious stories that were realistic in their approach. The nWo became a huge deal because of just how serious and realistic it was and the silly shit was generally kept to a segment or two a week.

- I'd argue TNA for the majority of it's life was pretty serious also. They didn't do a whole lot of exposing the business in their peak and offered a more serious and realistic alternative to what WWE was doing at the time. I was a long time TNA fan and I remember the only time I was really insulted was when Matt Hardy became "broken" and fought his brother with drones and shot explosives at him. Now they do really stupid comedy shit all the time and book intergender stuff but for the entirety of Dixie's run it was generally serious wrestling.

- I don't follow ROH anymore but when I did their style was always quite serious also. That might have changed as it's been a few years since I was actively following.

- Hell, you could even argue certain time periods in the WWE were super serious. I don't remember too much silliness from like 01-04/05 from the WWE.

I assume this post is going to have people saying "On TNA June 4th, 2005 AJ Styles wore a turkey suit to the ring and wrestled in it!" and you all are probably right. I'm talking general tone of these shows though. I'd say AEW has done more comedy and exposing of the business than anyone on national television in a long time (Maybe ever)
I think he meant old school wrestling. All of the promotions you list featured the modern style in some variation or another, though the likes of ROH took it deadly serious. WCW was generally more action packed and faster than WWE, until they caught up in 2000. TNA started implementing bad comedy once Russo was involved. Though they also featured a large amount of the video game style spotfest.

Nothing could ever expose the business like Hornswoggle pinning Chavo or El Torito pinning Drew McIntyre or the 24/7 rule. Or the Otis/Mandy Rose spot at the Royal Rumble, as good as it was.
 

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Could you indulge me with your list of 20 talents in WWE better than Kenny? Would love a good laugh.
I feel like you don't really want him to do that because he's going to come up with some random garbage list just to start shit. Then we are going to get pages and pages of back and forth between Bdon and The Wood about whether his list is right or now.
 

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I feel like you don't really want him to do that because he's going to come up with some random garbage list just to start shit. Then we are going to get pages and pages of back and forth between Bdon and The Wood about whether his list is right or now.
LMFAO

I had already put the notion of their being 20 better on ignore. Lmao
 

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Discussion Starter #150
Could you indulge me with your list of 20 talents in WWE better than Kenny? Would love a good laugh.
I don't know how anyone can deny that Kenny Omega has been the massive disappointment of AEW.

He's basically just a name that's living off of what he's done in Japan at this stage. What even is his gimmick?
 

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I don't know how anyone can deny that Kenny Omega has been the massive disappointment of AEW.

He's basically just a name that's living off of what he's done in Japan at this stage. What even is his gimmick?
That literally is his gimmick. He was a big time star in Japan but has been struggling to adapting to the American style. That's why he lost to Jericho, Moxley and Pac. He has shifted a bit to fit Hangman's story arc as well as the story of The Elite splitting apart. Jericho was always going to be the first champion end of story. He is the biggest star, the most known name. Putting the belt on him first was the right and only choice. Omega knows that.

Moxley was just apart of the biggest storyline in the biggest wrestling company on the planet coming into the company. The only one that was going to take the belt from Jericho is MOXLEY. That is your main event storyline for the first year for the world title.

Omega is going to get the belt but he can't be the biggest star when there are two bigger stars that are going to hold the belt first. The story they are telling with Omega is the correct one to tell. He will have a redemption story and he will take the belt from Mox eventually but he has to do something until then.

My god, I can't possibly understand how f'n hard it is to read between the storyline to find the bigger picture being told. Instant gratification, if they aren't blatant and short with their story arcs it confuses the hell out of idiot fans. Christ.
 

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AJ Styles
Randy Orton
Samoa Joe
Brock Lesnar
Daniel Bryan
Seth Rollins
Adam Cole
Finn Balor
Tommaso Ciampa
Johnny Gargano
Chad Gable
Rey Mysterio
Andrade
Shinsuke Nakamura
Sami Zayn
Kevin Owens
Roman Reigns
Bobby Roode
Dolph Ziggler
Rusev
Kyle O’Reilly
Roderick Strong
Cesaro

I’ll stop there, but depending on your flavor, you can make a case for any of those guys. Maybe not as being presented as a top guy, or being as spectacular in many cases, but as a total package and having significance, being able to tell a story, etc.? Yeah, absolutely, all of them.

Omega’s facials are awful, he cannot sell, he’s got limited psychology and he can’t make things look like he’s in a real fight. Those are MAJOR flaws. A lot of Omega’s hype is internet creation and New Japan booking. He excels at athletics and doing moves that look “crisp.” You have to grade exclusively on that scale to get him over the line.

As an overall worker, there’s a reason Omega is falling flat when you see him on TV every week. And he’s got creative control.

And if you think I’m exaggerating, just imagine how wet everyone’s panties would be if any of those guys showed up in either New Japan or AEW. They would immediately be as big or bigger a deal as Kenny Omega and you know it. Yes, even guys the internet shits on like Seth Rollins, Roman Reigns and Adam Cole. They would be perceived as “free” and every promo they cut would be amazing and every match they had would be over * and much closer to ***.

Perception matters.
 

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I know I’m going to have people call that laughable, but imagine Kevin Steen in AEW. Actually imagine what it would be like. Imagine Cesaro in a G1. Meltzer would be calling him the greatest wrestler in the world and you know it. Even if Omega was also there.

Roman Reigns in AEW? Joe Anoa’i shedding his “slave name” to come and see what this All Elite is all about, and if they’re ready for blood to be spilt? AEW fans would be crying tears of joy. As they should be. Are you really going to tell me Omega’s hushed tones and knee lifts are going to compete with that bass?

Even Chad Gable. That guy is sooooo fucking good. Shit gimmick, but the guy is the second coming of Kurt Angle. You put that little freak out there against Okada and I guarantee you break Dave’s scale again. “I was in the Olympics, you just carried the torch.” Bam. Tokyo Dome main event once Chas Betts wins the G1 Climax and becomes only the second gaijin to do so.
 

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AJ Styles
Randy Orton
Samoa Joe
Brock Lesnar
Daniel Bryan
Seth Rollins
Adam Cole
Finn Balor
Tommaso Ciampa
Johnny Gargano
Chad Gable
Rey Mysterio
Andrade
Shinsuke Nakamura
Sami Zayn
Kevin Owens
Roman Reigns
Bobby Roode
Dolph Ziggler
Rusev
Kyle O’Reilly
Roderick Strong
Cesaro
On this note, let's go 20 deep in AEW:

Jericho
Moxley
Cody
MJF
Omega
Hangman
Darby
Pac
Guevara
Hager
Sabian
Janella
Jungle Boy
Luchasaurus
Shawn Spears
Wardlow
Dustin Rhodes
Penta
Rey Fenix
Orange Cassidy

Notice how big of a dropoff there is between the first tier and the second? It's not even comparable, the midcard flat out sucks; I agree that a secondary title should be introduced, but not until the talent in the midcard is improved. By the time I got to the 11-12 range, I was genuinely struggling to figure out who to put on the list. I didn't mention the likes of Stunt, Kiss, and Nakazawa.
 

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Lets go to the old mill anyway, get some cider!
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I don't know how anyone can deny that Kenny Omega has been the massive disappointment of AEW.

He's basically just a name that's living off of what he's done in Japan at this stage. What even is his gimmick?
I dont buy that notion at all. Kenny got over huge in Japan basically exclusively for wrestling incredible matches right? Like I dont think anyone can argue that.

Even when Kenny 1st got into Bullet Club he was wrestling juniors still and he didnt even have his 1st match with Okada until more than 2 years after joining. There was no great character arc to him other than little touches they would do like the special entrances with the Terminator stuff, really his defining trait was being "The Best Bout Machine"

Then you add in the platforms that NJPW provides like the G1 and this is where Kenny became huge over the course of 3 years. He was having the best matches in the world with the best wrestlers in the world, that was his gimmick.

Now transfer to American tv and guess what? You cant just be that character and get over to a wider mainstream audience. Yes it can be part of it but then you have to layer it so he isnt one dimensional.

If people are saying hes been disappointing because he hasn't had quite the level of matches that he had in NJPW then well yeah NJPW has pretty much every single one of the best wrestlers in the world and a platform that accentuates great wrestling in volume.
 

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On this note, let's go 20 deep in AEW:

Jericho
Moxley
Cody
MJF
Omega
Hangman
Darby
Pac
Guevara
Hager
Sabian
Janella
Jungle Boy
Luchasaurus
Shawn Spears
Wardlow
Dustin Rhodes
Penta
Rey Fenix
Orange Cassidy

Notice how big of a dropoff there is between the first tier and the second? It's not even comparable, the midcard flat out sucks; I agree that a secondary title should be introduced, but not until the talent in the midcard is improved. By the time I got to the 11-12 range, I was genuinely struggling to figure out who to put on the list. I didn't mention the likes of Stunt, Kiss, and Nakazawa.
Look at the 1997-1998 roster of WCW. Then look at how thin or messed up/drugged up the WWF roster was, outside of Austin and 5-10 others.

Yet they got over: Ray Traylor, Kama Mustafa, Rockabilly, Jesse James, Diesel 2, Ace Brown, Andrew Martin and Scott Taylor. There is lot to be said for a small roster and some character work.
 

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On this note, let's go 20 deep in AEW:

Jericho
Moxley
Cody
MJF
Omega
Hangman
Darby
Pac
Guevara
Hager
Sabian
Janella
Jungle Boy
Luchasaurus
Shawn Spears
Wardlow
Dustin Rhodes
Penta
Rey Fenix
Orange Cassidy

Notice how big of a dropoff there is between the first tier and the second? It's not even comparable, the midcard flat out sucks; I agree that a secondary title should be introduced, but not until the talent in the midcard is improved. By the time I got to the 11-12 range, I was genuinely struggling to figure out who to put on the list. I didn't mention the likes of Stunt, Kiss, and Nakazawa.
Midcard is fucking hard. How do you make the undercard matter generally speaking? I'd say NXT does it well by trying to make everyone mean something.

I'd argue between Jurassic Express, Darby, Wardlow , guys like Sammy and Hangman(technically Elite but he's upper midcard champ material to me)Spears, Rey Fenix, don't forget Scorpio Sky... There's enough decent mid-card level guys to book a really good "everything that isn't Moxley/Cody/Jericho/Elite"
 

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Midcard is fucking hard. How do you make the undercard matter generally speaking? I'd say NXT does it well by trying to make everyone mean something.

I'd argue between Jurassic Express, Darby, Wardlow , guys like Sammy and Hangman(technically Elite but he's upper midcard champ material to me)Spears, Rey Fenix, don't forget Scorpio Sky... There's enough decent mid-card level guys to book a really good "everything that isn't Moxley/Cody/Jericho/Elite"
By giving them a reason to be there. A mid card title would go a long way to making 95% of their roster matter. Unfortunately, AEW's midcard is currently filled with jobbers or people who shouldn't even be there. Again, I just don't understand the logic behind some of their signings when there's so much better talent available. Imagine Hammerstone, Flip, Jacob Fatu, Jiro Kuroshio, Davey Boy, Chris Ridgeway, Pillman Jr., The Von Erichs and Eli Drake fighting it out for a mid card title instead of Darby Allin, SCU, Havoc, Janella, Sabian, Stunt and Guevara.

Holy fuck, I've just had a thought. AEW think the tag team titles are a mid card title..
 
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