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Premium Member
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Discussion Starter #1
hi

Greg and Isaac: you should both hopefully be able to see this and the other forums. I've set you both up as moderators so you can close/move/edit/stick/etc threads this time. You haven't got access to the main Staff Forum or power to give infractions out. I've kept your access to the Dumpster open though. Little things right. You're on a separate usergroup too so Isaac, if you want special userbars for you two then make them and you can have them. There's only you 2, me, Headliner and Platt who can see this section right now (I hope :eek:).

Right. Couple of things first so we can get going. Divisions? Do we want Sports and MMA together or Sports as part of the Non-Wrestling Division? I'd go for Sports and MMA together but I guess it depends on the sign up numbers we get too. Don't think we'll get enough to warrant MMA having it's own division. Wrestling and Non-Wrestling Divisions along with them obviously.

Judging. We need to get this sorted from the start. Read over the old Shinebox Central Thread so I'm up to date with everything in there. I'm assuming both of you are happy judging? All Topics? I want to focus on putting the shows together (I want to try and add some commentary and skits to the results shows so people not on the card can enjoy them too, as well as putting the cards and topics together) but I'm happy judging too as long as I'm not overloading myself on top of doing the shows and maybe some other fun stuff in between shows. I'd rather stick to the wrestling topics and some sports topics where I'm more in my element. Headliner? Judging? Rush said he'd be happy to judge some Sports/MMA debates and I'm happy with him doing it if you are. So that's 4, 5 if Headliner will judge again. If we get behind again this time on the judging then we can always split them up further and ask someone like WOOLCOCK to help judge the odd debate.

Issac, could you please make banners for the shows by any chance? :eek:

I've got May 10th - June 10th off between semesters so I want to try and get the first show in the books before I start back. Aiming to make the forum visible to everyone this time next week and then we can get sign ups open.

If I watch the Lakers match tonight then I might draft some rules/intro up while that's on.

:hb
 

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FUCK WHAT YOU THINK
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Alright here's what I can do.

~ General direction of league
~ Graphics for everything
~ Judging
~ Help with topics
~ Enforcement

Here's what I can't do due to time with my work & n0ted project.

~ Run shows / deal with intense topics
~ Update rankings and history etc

With that being said, and if it's cool that I help do this on those condition, here is what we're going to need to make this work off the top of my head.

~ A no bullshit rule that means you're out for life if you no show or bring the integrity of the league or staff into disrepute -- this is a dealbreaker for me b/c if you're lenient with people that fuck around it will slowly but surely kill the league. A 'serious' competetive spirit MUST be cultivated early on. Obviously it's gonna be fun too.
~ Judging panel that is made up of proven, respected, well articulated members
~ 3 divisions -- wrestling, non-wrestling, sports
~ A W/L/D ranking system that is fair
~ Word count lower & upper limits (higher for title matches)
~ Anonymous judging, ie we don't know who is who when judging a match for higher objectivity
~ Detailed judging feedback so people can see why they lost
~ High element of kayfabe to compliment the serious nature of the debates and judging (presume seabs has this covered)

More thoughts later as I remember stuff.
 

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FUCK WHAT YOU THINK
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Also, I believe this is suitable to my purpose.

 

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Premium Member
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Discussion Starter #4
Alright here's what I can do.

~ General direction of league
~ Graphics for everything
~ Judging
~ Help with topics
~ Enforcement

Here's what I can't do due to time with my work & n0ted project.

~ Run shows / deal with intense topics
~ Update rankings and history etc
That's what I was hoping you'd help with (Y)
With that being said, and if it's cool that I help do this on those condition, here is what we're going to need to make this work off the top of my head.

~ A no bullshit rule that means you're out for life if you no show or bring the integrity of the league or staff into disrepute -- this is a dealbreaker for me b/c if you're lenient with people that fuck around it will slowly but surely kill the league. A 'serious' competetive spirit MUST be cultivated early on. Obviously it's gonna be fun too.
Absolutely. Permanent hiatus for any no shows without warning. It'll suck if a good poster does it without warning but I agree on the no leniency. One rule for all. If they're shitty enough to no show without a reason or warning then they're not all that good anyway.
~ Judging panel that is made up of proven, respected, well articulated members
(Y) Are you ok with Rush? 5 should be enough so that we're not overloaded with debates to judge and we can spread them out. Not sure if Headliner wants to help judge. K?
~ 3 divisions -- wrestling, non-wrestling, sports
(Y)
~ A W/L/D ranking system that is fair
I was thinking about a ranking system yesterday and came stuck. Issue is with people who join later and/or have less debates puts a % ranking off. We could do a points ranking and factor win % in on a tie. I guess. If we're doing titles then a ranking system isn't necessarily the be end and end all at least.
~ Word count lower & upper limits (higher for title matches)
I'm fine with this. You could always just tell people to keep it succinct and to the point and if they go way too long then their debate suffers rather than an enforced upper limit. Either way works.
~ Anonymous judging, ie we don't know who is who when judging a match for higher objectivity
Not sure on this one. Not totally against it, just not sure. Might make the results shows look a bit odd with anonymous judging.
~ Detailed judging feedback so people can see why they lost
(Y)
~ High element of kayfabe to compliment the serious nature of the debates and judging (presume seabs has this covered)
Yeah I've got some quirky stuff planned for the results show and I'll try and keep some of in between shows as well to keep the section active. Hoping Greg can help maybe with stuff like interviews/profiles/etc kinda thing :eek:



Also, I believe this is suitable to my purpose.

(Y)

I'll add it when we go live.
 

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FUCK WHAT YOU THINK
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Rush is fine, yeah.

As for the ranking system, it's little more than a W-L-D record to see who's doing well. There isn't any real need for % at all IMO. We'll have the champions then decide who gets ranked where based on their recent performances/record. Nice and simple.

We'll need to keep a history section so we can log all the results and stuff.

Post-event magazines are a good idea too.

EDIT: Anonymous judging is only until a winner is decided -- obviously the guy who receives the debates will know who is who, so they can swap in the real names for the show. It's really just to keep out conscious or subconscious favoritism of certain members.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'll keep up with the archive stuff. Or at least try. I'll set up a debates archive sub-forum after the first show and keep a thread will a log of the results show as well as individual records. I'll set up a thread in here later for topic ideas and cross off what topics we've used.
 

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FUCK WHAT YOU THINK
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Cool shiz, we'll see what Greg has to say.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Oh you mean the debaters are anonymous to the judges judging the debate? :eek:

I'd be fine with that. Only problem is if people post their debates in their match thread then we'll know who's debate it is anyway.
 

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FUCK WHAT YOU THINK
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Yeah, exactly.

IMO the besy way to do it is have people send their debates in to whoever is running the show, then the debates and results get posted all together. More of a 'show' then, as nobody will have seen the content.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I'm fine with either way then. If we did that then we'd have to sort the judges out before we put the card up so people know who to send their debates to and it'd rule out that guy being a back up judge if someone falls behind on the judging.
 

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FUCK WHAT YOU THINK
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The way it works is this.

-- Match Threads posted w/ topic and deadline, with a note at the bottom -- 'SEND DEBATES TO SEABS' or whoever we choose.
-- At deadline, the person who has all the debates then sends to the designated judges (anon at this point)
-- The judges send their comments back with winners
-- The show runs

It's a more intense workload for sure but it makes the show/league 1000x better from a spectator view (which is how you build prestige/excitement of course)

This is the method I advocate.

EDIT: We should only do 1v1 matches too - 3/4 people in a match lowers quality, makes it harder to judge and makes it easier for people to no show. The best way to look at it is you want this to run like the UFC, not WWE. I realise the irony of what the forum is called but I do speak from experience here.
 

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DIRK
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A couple things:

1) SEABS
2) i$e
3) If Isaac does graphics/general behind the scenes moderating/judging/etc, I can fill the void. What I'll bring to the table:
-Judging
-Kayfabe stuff - interviews/debater profiles/random HYPE~!/whatnot
-General direction of league
-Possible debates here and there to pass the torch to younger talent (technically I retired as champ :eek:)
-Tidying of forum after shows, including closing/moving/archiving threads & debates
-Topic proposal (mostly for wrestling & non-wrestling)
-Post threads for shows/results
-other shit too idk FUCK

Basically, I'll be the poster boy for this league, if that's OK. As for a judging panel, here are a few nominees of competent posters in each division:

Wrestling
-WOOLCOCK
-Hayleysabin
-Clique
-Myself
-Yeah1993

Non-Wrestling
-Rush
-i$e
-:confused:

Sports
-Rush
-Seabs
-WOOLCOCK
-Notorious
-Mikey

Something along those lines. Headliner can help wherever he wants, too. That being said, it's likely that some of those folks are going to also be debaters, so we'll have to play around with it a bit.

When are we thinking of getting this going? I assume post a HYPE~! thread to generate interest (even a teaser thread like "TDL 2: It's coming" or something with a trademark glorious Isaac graphic), followed by sign-ups thread to get division rosters in order, then internally generate topics and matchups. We'll have to see how we want to handle title contendership off the bat. Top posters have changed in the 4 years since we last did this, so it'll be interesting to see who's the cream of the crop.

Agreed on the no-show no-nonsense rule. Hopefully the good posters take this seriously and we'll only have to cut jobbers.

I'M EXCITED (seeing as how I haven't made a post this long in ages)
 

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FUCK WHAT YOU THINK
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You're more than capable of judging non-wrestling too. DesolationRow still about? He can judge.
 

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DIRK
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Yeah, I'll judge non-wrestling as well. Sports I can judge certain topics (mostly basketball-related), but I'd only reserve that for moments of desperation.

I just noticed Deso was demodded but not sure what the backstory to that is.
 

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FUCK WHAT YOU THINK
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Here's the thing -- judges absolutely do not need to know about the topics, they just need to know what a well constructed argument looks like.

Which is why, despite not having watched wrestling properly since 2007, I think I could easily judge wrestling debates. I'd actually say it's better if you're not intimate with a certain topic as it takes the possibility of you edging a debate to someone just because you agree with him.
 

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DIRK
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Yeah, agreed. If you know nothing about the topic it eliminates bias (especially if the debaters are anonymous to the judges at the time of judging). That said, I think having competent and respected members synonymous w/certain sections of the forum (i.e. WOOLCOCK w/Wrestling, Rush w/MMA, etc) as judges for related topics makes us look better.
 

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FUCK WHAT YOU THINK
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Probably, but I think anyone who is on the panel should be called upon to judge anything.

The key issue left to discuss really is the 'side of debate' issue. It is my position that nobody should have to argue for a side if they don't want to -- ie. it's fine if two people debate 'for' something in the same match. The best way to circumvent this being a common thing is to use topics which require imagination and not just 'I agree' and 'I disagree'.
 

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DIRK
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Yeah, delegating sides doesn't make sense to me. Debaters should feel free to debate whichever side they choose. Title matches might be held to a different standard, though. I think at WR the champ delegated the sides.
 

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Yeah and I'm saying right now that's bullshit. Title matches will have open ended topics that are more leaned towards presenting individual viewpoints, not arguing for or against something. I know that's not a 'traditional' debate setup, but we're not a traditional league.
 

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DIRK
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Nah I fully agree.

So what's the timeline looking like on this? Seabs said he's planning on making this subforum visible this time next week, so I guess in the meantime we should:

1. Come up with a set panel of judges
2. Brainstorming topics
3. Create a few hype threads that will be live once the forum becomes visible (maybe introduce ourselves/the league/rules, etc.)
4. Timeline for first show
 
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