Wrestling Forum banner

41 - 60 of 76 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,808 Posts
Of course. If Mayweather can be face of boxing at 140lb and McGregor face of mma at 160 then a smaller guy can be face of pro wrestling.

Once you pigeon hole yourself into believing only big guys should be on top you limit the chance of anyone becoming a breakout star. It's akin to a circus having the main attraction always the strongman and every other act as filler..

WWE for 40 years have tried to tell the story that Hulk Hogan, Cena, Reigns were underdogs and odds were stacked against Austin so in theory a smaller guy on top would actually be perfect for the story they are attempting to tell at least last decade because nobody buys Cena or reigns as underdogs.
Yes look at Rollins.
Except Rollins is nowhere near 140 lol



Noble and Mercury aren't that small

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
395 Posts
Of course. If Mayweather can be face of boxing at 140lb and McGregor face of mma at 160 then a smaller guy can be face of pro wrestling.

Once you pigeon hole yourself into believing only big guys should be on top you limit the chance of anyone becoming a breakout star. It's akin to a circus having the main attraction always the strongman and every other act as filler..

WWE for 40 years have tried to tell the story that Hulk Hogan, Cena, Reigns were underdogs and odds were stacked against Austin so in theory a smaller guy on top would actually be perfect for the story they are attempting to tell at least last decade because nobody buys Cena or reigns as underdogs.


Except Rollins is nowhere near 140 lol



Noble and Mercury aren't that small

You do realize that McGregor and Floyd only become who they are because they always fights guys their size right ? And you do realize that in a a world where Floyd and McGreggor would have to fight in the same division with the top heavyweights , those 2 guys would have been crushed and would be just 2 loudmouths nobodies with less than 50/50 win rate so they would both be perceived as jokes / memes.

In McGregors case in fact the guy made his name mostly by utilizing his size and fighting smaller guys than him in the featherweight division and once he moved to the light weight division which is just 10lbs guys heavier all of a sudden he is about 50/50 fighter. He lost to Diaz , Lost to Khabib and the guy he beat was once again physically smaller than him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,291 Posts
Rollins is probably a little smaller than Mid-late 90s Shawn Michaels. I'd guess he's about 190-195lbs. He's certainly not large, but he's not small, especially by todays standards. His problem isn't his size, it's that he sucks. Adam Cole and Johnny Gargano are legit around 145-150lbs or so, they're tiny.

As far as a guy that small being the FOTC, the only guy that small in the history of the business that could have pulled it off is Rey Mysterio. He had the charisma, he had the marketability, he was great at generating sympathy, he had the right psychology and move set for his size and gimmick. He would be the only one. These other new smaller guys don't know how to generate sympathy, don't have the charisma or look, and they have an insanely stupid ring style and moveset that would look ridiculously dumb against anyone over 200lbs. Rey was all about using his speed, technique, endurance and durability to outlast and outmanuever guys bigger than him, you could suspend disbelief to a degree because the way he did it looking believable, these new small guys would just trade high spots with a guy 50-100lbs bigger than they are, and it frankly looks ridiculous.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
I just see people all time say Adam cole is the future and stuff like that and comparing him to Michaels. Yes Michaels was small but he always about 195-200lbs and he looked like a athlete. Adam cole he's very thin and small he's like the bucks in terms of how he looks and I just can't take that seriously in terms of the guy you put on top of your show and say this is the reason why you should tune in. Guys like cole there is a place for them in the WWE but I just don't see that being the guy you build the show around for the next 5-10 years putting him feuds with guys literally twice his size and having him go over consistently. But maybe the business has changed to a point where that can happen and people will go with it but you also see the business is at a all time low and you do see people that don't wanna watch 150lb guys flipping and hitting superkicks
This and the Waltman comparison's to Cole's physique are great points. HBK is about as small as a company should go as far as giving a guy a run a decent run as the main guy. Anything smaller and the big guys just start to look ridiculous.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
903 Posts
Here is the thing...when it comes to both sports and entertainment (or in this case, the compound word/term or genre of Sports Entertainment), people pay to see the extraordinary. They pay to see the athletes that can are built like adonises and can run, jump, throw, hit, etc. far better than the average person. In combative sports of course, there is a reason why you have weight classes, but yet the larger classes generally do the best business.Even so, it is usually the extraordinarily looking or gifted that garners the most attention.

In wrestling, while the days of the 70's and 80's where you had bodybuilders clashing with monsters are behind us, people still want to see the extraordinary. "Smaller" guys like the Bret Harts and Shawn Michaels' (and you can even put Steve Austin and Ric Flair in this category) went very far because they had an aura about them that attracted people to them and become invested in their characters.

However, when the paradigm shifted to where the roster became flooded with talent that tried to emulate them, the business started to go down. The Jerichos, Guerreros, Benoits, Angles, etc. were good, but the box office proves that guys like Cena, Brock, Reigns are what sell. We rail all the time about Vince being out of touch, but when the guys that we are tired of seeing make him the most money while the lighter, flippity-flop guys can't draw a house or a rating, we really can't fault him! He did try now and then, but the smaller guys simply do not draw.

As for the question as to whether a 145-160 lb guy can carry a company, the answer is (still) a resounding NO! You cannot sell a guy as small as Adam Cole (since his name is coming up a lot on this topic) consistently beating 250-300lb guys. They sold us Rey Mysterio doing that for over 20 years, but whenever they tried putting him at the top of the card as champion, he FLOPPED!

A guy that the average guy can feel confident winning a real life fight with is just not going to do good for business. So, those that have their hopes set high for miniature guys like Cole or Gargano ascending to the very top of the mountain on the big stage (sorry, NXT is still the minor league program), I say: don't hold your breath!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,291 Posts
This and the Waltman comparison's to Cole's physique are great points. HBK is about as small as a company should go as far as giving a guy a run a decent run as the main guy. Anything smaller and the big guys just start to look ridiculous.
Shawns 200lbs was different back then though because he was in the land of giants. Throughout the New Generation Era, the Attitude Era, and the Ruthless Aggression eras, look at all of the monsters on the roster. Guys like Billy Gunn weren't even considered big guys back then and he was 260lbs, he'd easily be one of the biggest guys on the roster today.

You could probably be smaller nowadays and get away with it because the roster is so much smaller. The big problem is that none of these small guys know how to work a small guy style, nor do they have the look or charisma to pull it off. Adam Cole doesn't work like a Rey Mysterio, or even a Paul London or some old school cruiserweight would against a big guy. He doesn't really know how to work, he'll just work his usual trading high spot nonsense against everyone, even if its a guy thats twice his size.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,808 Posts
Here is the thing...when it comes to both sports and entertainment (or in this case, the compound word/term or genre of Sports Entertainment), people pay to see the extraordinary. They pay to see the athletes that can are built like adonises and can run, jump, throw, hit, etc. far better than the average person. In combative sports of course, there is a reason why you have weight classes, but yet the larger classes generally do the best business.Even so, it is usually the extraordinarily looking or gifted that garners the most attention.

In wrestling, while the days of the 70's and 80's where you had bodybuilders clashing with monsters are behind us, people still want to see the extraordinary. "Smaller" guys like the Bret Harts and Shawn Michaels' and you can even put Steve Austin and Ric Flair in this category, went very far because they had an aura about them that attracted people to them and become invested in their characters.

However, when the paradigm shifted to where the roster became flooded with talent that tried to emulated them, the business started to go down. The Jerichos, Guerreros, Benoits, Angles, etc. were good, but the box office proves that guys like Cena, Brock, Reigns are what sell. We rail all the time about Vince being out of touch, but when the guys that we are tired of seeing make him the most money while the lighter, flippity-flop guys can't draw a house or a rating, we really can't fault him! He did try now and then, but the smaller guys simply do not draw.
Business went down because of a number of things and it wasn't the size of certain wrestlers.

Brock Lesnar was pushed to moon same time as Eddie/Benoit etc were getting pushes. JBL was champion for a year, HHH was dominating everyone. Business for WWE at least started falling immediately after Wrestlemania 17 not in 2003-04.

As for the question as to whether a 145-160 lb guy can carry a company, the answer is (still) a resounding NO! You cannot sell a guy as small as Adam Cole (since his name is coming up a lot on this topic) consistently beating 250-300lb guys. They sold us Rey Mysterio doing that for over 20 years, but whenever they tried putting him at the top of the card as champion, he FLOPPED!
Mysterio sold merch by the truckload, had highest Hispanic viewership in company history and set all sorts of records for WWE in Mexico including tons of sellouts and all time record tv ratings circa 2008-11. That despite only getting half push in mainevent where he was treated like crap.

A guy that the average guy can feel confident winning a real life fight with is just not going to do good for business. So, those that have their hopes set high for miniature guys like Cole or Gargano ascending to the very top of the mountain in the big stage (sorry, NXT is still the minor league program), I say: don't hold your breath!!
Why are average people often the stars of tv shows and movies so?

Luke Skywalker skinny kid beats the Empire
Sarah Connor frail girl beats the unstoppable Terminator
Randy Quaids drunken loser character takes down the unstoppable aliens in Independence day.

Tv is the same. Big bang 4 nerds, breaking bad normal guy to begin with.
Rollins is probably a little smaller than Mid-late 90s Shawn Michaels. I'd guess he's about 190-195lbs. He's certainly not large, but he's not small, especially by todays standards. His problem isn't his size, it's that he sucks. Adam Cole and Johnny Gargano are legit around 145-150lbs or so, they're tiny.
neither are that small and Rollins is bigger than 98 Michaels
You do realize that McGregor and Floyd only become who they are because they always fights guys their size right ? And you do realize that in a a world where Floyd and McGreggor would have to fight in the same division with the top heavyweights , those 2 guys would have been crushed and would be just 2 loudmouths nobodies with less than 50/50 win rate so they would both be perceived as jokes / memes.

In McGregors case in fact the guy made his name mostly by utilizing his size and fighting smaller guys than him in the featherweight division and once he moved to the light weight division which is just 10lbs guys heavier all of a sudden he is about 50/50 fighter. He lost to Diaz , Lost to Khabib and the guy he beat was once again physically smaller than him.
I have seen that written multiple times here already and no, you guys are completely missing point. Fighting guys their own size is irrelevant, anyway Royce Gracie was 170lb and beating guys 100lb bigger easily. Rocky Marciano was 180.

Size or who Mayweather and McGregor fought is completely irrelevant. They were pushed and marked as top talents in their sport.. something that would never happen in pro wrestling. In fact both would struggle to get signed by top fed if starting out and not famous.

Hell Gorgeous George wouldn't be pushed past a prelim comedy character if he debuted post 84 because he would be considered 'undersized'
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,877 Posts
In an ironic twist, Tony Nese who is smaller than Cole I think actually looks bigger than him....Abs, Biceps is what appeals to most viewers. There is no official protocol of what to look like in WWE anymore, probably been that way for the past 20 years, but there pretty much is a guideline of what not to look like in terms of physique. When you look at Boxing, MMA, many of the guys who aren't heavyweights are capable of being their respective fotc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
Shawns 200lbs was different back then though because he was in the land of giants. Throughout the New Generation Era, the Attitude Era, and the Ruthless Aggression eras, look at all of the monsters on the roster. Guys like Billy Gunn weren't even considered big guys back then and he was 260lbs, he'd easily be one of the biggest guys on the roster today.

You could probably be smaller nowadays and get away with it because the roster is so much smaller. The big problem is that none of these small guys know how to work a small guy style, nor do they have the look or charisma to pull it off. Adam Cole doesn't work like a Rey Mysterio, or even a Paul London or some old school cruiserweight would against a big guy. He doesn't really know how to work, he'll just work his usual trading high spot nonsense against everyone, even if its a guy thats twice his size.
So true, guys like Bret and Shawn knew how to work giants. If a guy like Cole thinks he can tell a story trading blows with a monster than that's laughable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
Why are average people often the stars of tv shows and movies so?

Luke Skywalker skinny kid beats the Empire
Sarah Connor frail girl beats the unstoppable Terminator
Randy Quaids drunken loser character takes down the unstoppable aliens in Independence day.
It's all about the story about how they do it though.

Luke had been trained up by the 3rd film and he's fighting his father, who is probably pulling punches
Sarah Connor only destroys the Terminator after Kyle Reese had saved her multiple times and destroyed half of it's body where it could only crawl with one arm.
Randy Quaid's character could only destroy an alien ship after other people had taken down their defense system

It's all about story!

A small guy should only be beating a monster in wrestling if they cut corners and cheat or work a body part like the knees to even the odds. A small guy shouldn't be trading big blows with a monster and go over.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,291 Posts
Business went down because of a number of things and it wasn't the size of certain wrestlers.

Brock Lesnar was pushed to moon same time as Eddie/Benoit etc were getting pushes. JBL was champion for a year, HHH was dominating everyone. Business for WWE at least started falling immediately after Wrestlemania 17 not in 2003-04.



Mysterio sold merch by the truckload, had highest Hispanic viewership in company history and set all sorts of records for WWE in Mexico including tons of sellouts and all time record tv ratings circa 2008-11. That despite only getting half push in mainevent where he was treated like crap.



Why are average people often the stars of tv shows and movies so?

Luke Skywalker skinny kid beats the Empire
Sarah Connor frail girl beats the unstoppable Terminator
Randy Quaids drunken loser character takes down the unstoppable aliens in Independence day.

Tv is the same. Big bang 4 nerds, breaking bad normal guy to begin with.

neither are that small and Rollins is bigger than 98 Michaels


I have seen that written multiple times here already and no, you guys are completely missing point. Fighting guys their own size is irrelevant, anyway Royce Gracie was 170lb and beating guys 100lb bigger easily. Rocky Marciano was 180.

Size or who Mayweather and McGregor fought is completely irrelevant. They were pushed and marked as top talents in their sport.. something that would never happen in pro wrestling. In fact both would struggle to get signed by top fed if starting out and not famous.

Hell Gorgeous George wouldn't be pushed past a prelim comedy character if he debuted post 84 because he would be considered 'undersized'
90s Shawn was billed at 6'1 225 and Seth is billed at 6'1 217lbs. Now promoters always inflate stats, Shawn is probably 5'11 195lbs-200lbs and Seth is probably 5'11 190lbs. He's not a huge guy. Not small, but not huge.
 

·
F*** This indy flippy shit
Joined
·
2,222 Posts
I personally would not do it. The undersized guys have a place in the undercard to keep the work rate marks happy, but as far as being the champion or face of your company, I think that's a huge mistake.

Casual fans want to see larger than life characters, not 160lb Adam Cole who is one of the least intimidating wrestlers I've seen.

If I'm Joe Public and I see a billboard with Adam Cole on it, it's not going to draw my attention. If I see some yoked out monster like Brock Lesnar, then it'll at least draw enough interest to check out the product.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,291 Posts
So true, guys like Bret and Shawn knew how to work giants. If a guy like Cole thinks he can tell a story trading blows with a monster than that's laughable.
Exactly. Cole doesn't have the moveset or the psychology to work a bigger guy. His emaciated look doesn't help him either. Even a guy smaller than him like Rey Mysterio at least looked like an athlete. Cole would look to trade high spots with guys like Undertaker, Sid, or Vader. It would look fucking ridiculous.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,291 Posts
I personally would not do it. The undersized guys have a place in the undercard to keep the work rate marks happy, but as far as being the champion or face of your company, I think that's a huge mistake.

Casual fans want to see larger than life characters, not 160lb Adam Cole who is one of the least intimidating wrestlers I've seen.

If I'm Joe Public and I see a billboard with Adam Cole on it, it's not going to draw my attention. If I see some yoked out monster like Brock Lesnar, then it'll at least draw enough interest to check out the product.
You can be larger than life and small. Look at McGregor and Mayweather, or even guys like Rey Mysterio. Roddy Piper was pretty small but he was one of the biggest stars of the 80s. It's about charisma and the ability to get the audience to suspend disbelief. A mediocre talent with a horrible look like Cole doesn't have that ability
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
903 Posts
Business went down because of a number of things and it wasn't the size of certain wrestlers.

Brock Lesnar was pushed to moon same time as Eddie/Benoit etc were getting pushes. JBL was champion for a year, HHH was dominating everyone. Business for WWE at least started falling immediately after Wrestlemania 17 not in 2003-04.



Mysterio sold merch by the truckload, had highest Hispanic viewership in company history and set all sorts of records for WWE in Mexico including tons of sellouts and all time record tv ratings circa 2008-11. That despite only getting half push in mainevent where he was treated like crap.



Why are average people often the stars of tv shows and movies so?

Luke Skywalker skinny kid beats the Empire
Sarah Connor frail girl beats the unstoppable Terminator
Randy Quaids drunken loser character takes down the unstoppable aliens in Independence day.

Tv is the same. Big bang 4 nerds, breaking bad normal guy to begin with.

neither are that small and Rollins is bigger than 98 Michaels
1) Brock was pushed to the moon because he was (and still is) a freak of nature. Eddie and Benoit got pushes when Brock was on his way out the door. Both guys left Wrestlemania 20 with the 2 top belts, but by the end of Summerslam, the belts were off of them. Why??? They couldn't draw. The stuff about HHH and JBL are true, but their heat drew better than Eddie and Benoit.

2) Did Rey sell merch?...yeah. BUT, if he was that big of a draw, he wouldn't have flopped as champion. In the midcard, you could get away with booking him to win a bit because you can choose opponents at random that you can make a somewhat believable match with. As the top champion, you have to book him with a lot of bigger guys in whom his offense would be virtually ineffective. Rey only works primarily with slender and athletic opponents because his opponents have to work and flip, etc. to make Rey's offense look like it did something. Also, don't forget that Rey became champ the first time ONLY because they wanted to capitalize on a feel good moment in the wake of Eddie's death. After the win, the reign flopped, fans were disinterested, and the belt had to come off of him. His other world title reigns were brief.

3) Comparing Movies and "Sports Entertainment" are like comparing apples and oranges! People (even with the company now telling you it is scripted) look at it with a somewhat realistic approach. You can sell a movie with an average person "saving the world" but you can't do that with wrestling. If business was great when the smaller guys were given the ball, Vince McMahon would be pushing the small guys to the moon. Smarks and crowds can cheer for a push but if money is not being made, they will not go far.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,189 Posts
Becky just was the face of the company unless you count men only.

A midget like adam cole? idk . He doesnt pass the air port test. imagine doing media rounds all the women interviewing him will be the same size.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,094 Posts
Sorry but that’s hot garbage way of thinking.
Remember Enzo amore ? The guy was exactly this, a small 160-170 lbs guy who was actually really fun on the mic. Even went as far as main eventing raw when he won the Cruiserweight title.

...

That whole idea that 160 lbs guy can or should dominate guys 2 times his size becuase he is good on the mic is stupid and luckily the management also sees it that way
How’s that working out for management?

Seriously, Enzo is the standard? That you’d pick a comedy act and hold that as the standard is a garbage way of counter-arguing. Enzo was fun and all, but he wasn’t top guy material. It’s a false premise and I’d never use Enzo as an example.

Wrestling is fundamentally an entertainment product in the world of sports. You can tell a good David vs Goliath story and people would buy it if you tell it well. I’d totally buy Daniel Bryan beating Brock, I bought Benoit making Brock tap back in the day, though I hated HBK I bought it when he beat Vader. Not only can it be done, it has been done.

The idea that “The small guy can’t be good enough to beat big guys” severely limits the stories you can tell in this world and creates a cynical, defeatist mindset that bums out the crowd when they get behind a smaller babyface. You’d be a really bad wrestling promoter if you booked that way. Much like present-day WWE.

I’d book Rey, CM Punk, Jeff Hardy, or Bryan over Brock a million times over a guy like Drew McIntyre who isn’t anywhere near as over. Of course, the story would have to be well written to justify it, but just writing it off because they’re “too small” is a recipe for failure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
How’s that working out for management?

Seriously, Enzo is the standard? That you’d pick a comedy act and hold that as the standard is a garbage way of counter-arguing. Enzo was fun and all, but he wasn’t top guy material. It’s a false premise and I’d never use Enzo as an example.

Wrestling is fundamentally an entertainment product in the world of sports. You can tell a good David vs Goliath story and people would buy it if you tell it well. I’d totally buy Daniel Bryan beating Brock, I bought Benoit making Brock tap back in the day, though I hated HBK I bought it when he beat Vader. Not only can it be done, it has been done.

The idea that “The small guy can’t be good enough to beat big guys” severely limits the stories you can tell in this world and creates a cynical, defeatist mindset that bums out the crowd when they get behind a smaller babyface. You’d be a really bad wrestling promoter if you booked that way. Much like present-day WWE.

I’d book Rey, CM Punk, Jeff Hardy, or Bryan over Brock a million times over a guy like Drew McIntyre who isn’t anywhere near as over. Of course, the story would have to be well written to justify it, but just writing it off because they’re “too small” is a recipe for failure.
That's not what we're saying though. In all those cases of David vs Goliath, David is usually getting his ass kicked for most of the match and relies on just outlasting the monster or breaking the monster down somehow. Trading blows, a-la Rocky Balboa would be ridiculous.
 
41 - 60 of 76 Posts
Top