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E:16
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Nick Clegg and other Eurocrats said it was a dangerous fantasy to suggest that the EU was pushing towards having a common European army under the EU's discretion even though the EU's biggest supporters have been calling for it for years. Now it seems like it's getting pushed closer to reality. Eurosceptics are being proved right in their claims.

That's what I was referring to.
Yeah I know, but I'm always confused why its an issue negatively or why Clegg would consider it dangerous. What is it about a European one that is of any specific concern?

Edit: Yet another resignation.
 

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Yeah I know, but I'm always confused why its an issue negatively or why Clegg would consider it dangerous. What is it about a European one that is of any specific concern?

Edit: Yet another resignation.
The main argument is with concern to further European integration. The creation of a European army is seen by many as the continuation of policies to bring together an ever closer union within the EU countries moving towards a European superstate. The army itself would be under the jurisdiction of the EU commission and not under any elected sovereign nation state and thus no accountability can be attributed to it. So unlike for example if the British state decides to go to war and it ends up being disastrous, we can hold our leaders accountable, the same cannot be said for the EU army which acts on behalf of the EU leaders themselves. That is what the fear is, particularly as integration continues to accelerate and we move to an ever closer union.

The other concern tied to this of course is if foreign policy is decided on a European level that it undermines individual nations to be able to make their own foreign policy decisions in the interests of their respective countries because all 27 nations would have to agree on the best course of action. So if a nation state disagrees, it means they don't have full control over their decision making. This has been the crux of the problem with the migrant crisis and the common asylum policy. Those against the mass immigration of migrants such as Italy and the Eastern European countries have had a huge fight on their hands to stop being bullied into taking more migrants when they can't afford to nor want to. We've already seen moves by leaders in the EU to try and integrate foreign policy into the union and apply it to all of the member states even before this announcement by both Macron and Merkel....who are both supranationalists, so it's no surprise they back this.

I'm not sure if Clegg himself is for or against this. Only that the argument that it was being pushed for was false.....which obviously turns out to not be the case.

There are other concerns tied to the idea, namely it undermines NATO and the role it plays. How would other nations like the US and Turkey feel about a competing entity which essentially would share many of the same goals? I'm personally against both NATO and a European army anyway. The other being that it could spark further escalation and tension between the EU and Russia, especially with the EU's role in the coup that happened in Ukraine many years ago where there are still consequences of that decision being felt. So there are both foreign policy concerns and concerns with how the EU is morphing itself with the creation of such an army.


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Rees Mogg has signed a letter of vote of no confidence which is hugely significant as he holds a big sway amongst back benchers. We're getting closer to May's position as Conservative leader being challenged. It's really starting to fall apart for her now.

Even if you disagree with Brexit, what is clear is that she has sold her deal in an absolutely terrible fashion. Her argument was essentially, either my deal or we get no Brexit at all. The idiot doesn't realize that this will just embolden remainers even further to vote against the deal.....who she needs because the leavers in her own party are not happy with what she has come up with.

I've wanted her to go for quite some time, I don't think now is the time....though should the deal not go through, perhaps I'll change my tune on it.
 

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Brexit continues to be a disaster. Leave voters continue to go 'remoaners' and remainers continue to call leavers racist or stupid.

We were let down massively by both campaigns and now being let down because no one has a fucking clue what they're doing. Maybot and her Tory cronies are weak as fuck and the EU are trying to be as petty as possible.

I'm a remainer and begrudge anyone who voted leave and anyone who campaigned for leave because we're royally fucked right now.

This guy gets it
 

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E:16
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Lots of information now saying there are enough no confidence letters to trigger a vote on May!
 
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You need to be yourself, you can't be no-one else.
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I don't know whats worse, this fucking mess or corbyn waiting in the wings to take over.

 

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WTF are these people doing!?

Nobody with any sense thought that Brexit was going to work. We have an EU that will protect their interests even at the expense of big businesses selling into the UK. I don't blame them, it keeps them in jobs and stops descent spreading through the rest of the EU, particularly the likes of Greece and Italy.

We have people on the remain side who can't are so incredibly frustrated that they can provide evidence that the leave side won't hear. We have the leavers who will never admit to being wrong, no matter how much water fills the lifeboat they will still claim to be sailing smoothly. We have leavers who changed their minds, realising that they were fucked from the get go...

Corbyn talks about some nonsensical customs union which will NEVER happen without free movement. We sides on the fence, bringing his own self-interests and career agenda before national interests. Rees-Mogg and Co are holding May to ransom without having the slightest hint of an alternative and we are heading for a Johnson premiership. It is just plain hideous.

Why Cameron didn't foresee the Ireland border being a huge issue I do not know. Why nobody pointed out during the campaign was even more baffling.

Leavers - I believe - aren't racist per se, they just have so much anger and hatred at seeing big companies employing lower paid EU citizens, their wages not increasing with inflation, housing for their children diminishing, NHS resources stretched and they wanted to make a stand against the whole establishment. They blame immigration because the upper classes have brainwashed them into thinking this way to stop them turning on the upper classes. It is always the way and always will be. The fact is that this and previous governments have turned their backs on the working classes and this is the result.


I don't like calling leavers stupid because I voted leave and I can see the error in my ways. That said if you voted leave and you don't have the humility to admit you made a whacking great mistake then you are stupid. You can't ignore evidence.

I don't know whats worse, this fucking mess or corbyn waiting in the wings to take over.

It is a horrific prospect as far as I am concerned and I am a labour voter historically. I now veer toward the LibDems but they aren't much cop at the moment either. Corbyn will hike up tax on the wealthy, they will all tell him to sod off and either 1) move assets out of the UK or 2) leave the UK entirely. We lose jobs, increase spending and borrowing. He can talk about equality and fairness all he likes but someone has to pay for it.
 

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You need to be yourself, you can't be no-one else.
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It is a horrific prospect as far as I am concerned and I am a labour voter historically. I now veer toward the LibDems but they aren't much cop at the moment either. Corbyn will hike up tax on the wealthy, they will all tell him to sod off and either 1) move assets out of the UK or 2) leave the UK entirely. We lose jobs, increase spending and borrowing. He can talk about equality and fairness all he likes but someone has to pay for it.
I personally despise labour.

tony blair fucked it all up and gordan browns government pulled out the foundations before leaving a note to laugh at the fact there was no money left. For that labour can go fuck themselves.

I dont however like the conservatives either, they are all complete bastards. Corbyn would be an utter disaster though. I have voted conservatives in the past purely because I hate labour, I dont want them anywhere near parliament. Certainly not corbyn.
 

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It seems terribly ironic to me that some of the opposition is the potential for UK to break up as some of the states might prefer staying in the EU in the future, in a deal of Britain wanting to remove themselves from a bigger union of the EU.

Give me my sovereignty back! But don't tempt those under my authority with more right to their sovereignty!
 

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The average person could probably name quite a few things Tories/Westminster are doing to make their lives worse (particularly up north/Scotland), but I've never really heard anyone talk about how the EU is affecting their day-to-day lives negatively. If that is the case, they've not done a good job at putting the information out there.
 

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WTF are these people doing!?

Nobody with any sense thought that Brexit was going to work. We have an EU that will protect their interests even at the expense of big businesses selling into the UK. I don't blame them, it keeps them in jobs and stops descent spreading through the rest of the EU, particularly the likes of Greece and Italy.

We have people on the remain side who can't are so incredibly frustrated that they can provide evidence that the leave side won't hear. We have the leavers who will never admit to being wrong, no matter how much water fills the lifeboat they will still claim to be sailing smoothly. We have leavers who changed their minds, realising that they were fucked from the get go...

Corbyn talks about some nonsensical customs union which will NEVER happen without free movement. We sides on the fence, bringing his own self-interests and career agenda before national interests. Rees-Mogg and Co are holding May to ransom without having the slightest hint of an alternative and we are heading for a Johnson premiership. It is just plain hideous.

Why Cameron didn't foresee the Ireland border being a huge issue I do not know. Why nobody pointed out during the campaign was even more baffling.

Leavers - I believe - aren't racist per se, they just have so much anger and hatred at seeing big companies employing lower paid EU citizens, their wages not increasing with inflation, housing for their children diminishing, NHS resources stretched and they wanted to make a stand against the whole establishment. They blame immigration because the upper classes have brainwashed them into thinking this way to stop them turning on the upper classes. It is always the way and always will be. The fact is that this and previous governments have turned their backs on the working classes and this is the result.


I don't like calling leavers stupid because I voted leave and I can see the error in my ways. That said if you voted leave and you don't have the humility to admit you made a whacking great mistake then you are stupid. You can't ignore evidence.



It is a horrific prospect as far as I am concerned and I am a labour voter historically. I now veer toward the LibDems but they aren't much cop at the moment either. Corbyn will hike up tax on the wealthy, they will all tell him to sod off and either 1) move assets out of the UK or 2) leave the UK entirely. We lose jobs, increase spending and borrowing. He can talk about equality and fairness all he likes but someone has to pay for it.
all this sort of stuff to politicians is a game and a chance to leave a legacy, good or bad. they play human chess and neither of them lose except for the pieces. happening everywhere.
 

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So who will be Prime Minister by the end of the year? Theresa May? Boris Johnson? David Davis? Andrea Leadsom? Jacob Rees-Mogg?

Also I'm surprised Gove hasn't resigned and is supporting May's deal despite the ugly history between the two as well as Gove being one of the faces of Vote Leave.
 

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Leavers - I believe - aren't racist per se, they just have so much anger and hatred at seeing big companies employing lower paid EU citizens, their wages not increasing with inflation, housing for their children diminishing, NHS resources stretched and they wanted to make a stand against the whole establishment. They blame immigration because the upper classes have brainwashed them into thinking this way to stop them turning on the upper classes. It is always the way and always will be. The fact is that this and previous governments have turned their backs on the working classes and this is the result.


I don't like calling leavers stupid because I voted leave and I can see the error in my ways. That said if you voted leave and you don't have the humility to admit you made a whacking great mistake then you are stupid. You can't ignore evidence.
I think a large part of the issue was a number of low-skilled immigrants flooding the lower end of the labour market, which suppressed wages for manual labour and led to an increase in the number of fixed term and temporary contracts. Not enough was done to deal with this, so people in the poorer areas - particularly those in the areas of lower investment voted to leave the EU.

What does Barry, 53 from Barnsley who's recently been laid off have to lose by voting to take a chance on leaving the EU?

I think remaining was the right choice and did at the time, but I do understand the reasons that some had for leaving.
 

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It's constantly becoming more and more clear that 'Brexit' as an issue all along has essentially just been an internal Tory psycho-drama played out on a depressingly large scale and press-ganging in millions of people who have somehow been convinced that no, Jacob Rees-Mogg totally cares about the poor working class and isn't just using them as pawns for his own craven political ambition and financial benefit.
 

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E:16
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Nadine Doris, leave voting Tory is upset that Mays deal doesn't leave us with any MEPs or votes...

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2018/11/19/tory-mp-nadine-dorries-really-make-complaint-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-favourite-responses-online/?fbclid=IwAR2rkGfJlWRrCOW_wJL-0vmwK_UcS3PPlrZbpJ2qLFOCz-B_ZOl6GZ-sbXA

Granted it cuts off and she could have said something to save herself but is there any wonder those is so shit when these people are in charge?
She's right, I don't know why she's being seen as a moron for it. It's true that under the deal the UK will be following EU law without having any say in the bodies that make the law - i.e. no commissioner, no MEPs etc. - which is why she wants to reject the deal.

The point isn't that she wants to have Commissioners and MEPs when the UK leaves the EU, it's that a country which follows law from the EU should have a say in those bodies, and a country which does not have a say - the UK post-Brexit - should not have to follow the laws.

The truth is that the deal the UK has provisionally agreed to is the sort of deal a country would sign when it lost a war, or when enemy forces were massing on its border and it was the only way to prevent conquest. It's a document of surrender, the UK loses sovereignty, loses control over its territory and must enforce internal borders and loses the right to leave without permission. It's the worst deal the UK has contemplated signing up to for at least the last 70 years, possibly in its history.

It's no wonder people who wanted to leave because of sovereignty are unhappy about it. The only mystery is why anyone supports it.
 

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E:16
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She's right, I don't know why she's being seen as a moron for it. It's true that under the deal the UK will be following EU law without having any say in the bodies that make the law - i.e. no commissioner, no MEPs etc. - which is why she wants to reject the deal.
:confused
 

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:confused
Under the transition arrangement the UK follows every single EU law without being a member and without having any say on those laws until the end of 2020. That transition period can be extended until 31 December 20XX. The EU have spoken about December 31 2022 for that date, i.e. after the next UK election, so it may well be that a pro-European party gets elected and opts to apply to rejoin or extend the transition indefinitely.

Under the backstop some of those rules will apply until the EU says otherwise. Some of those laws may even apply to one part of the UK permanently.
 
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