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Discussion Starter #21
“Why do I have to listen to what doctors say? Doctors have been wrong so many times in the past, surely I’m more qualified to decide what’s good and not good for my own body. Fuck the doctors”.

Is essentially supported by the same argument you’re providing but this time instead of your body, its an entire continent that’s getting affected.
Never mind that he's parroting talking points put forward by idiots like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson who's entire argument basically comes down to "we're Great Britain, bulldog spirit, stiff upper lip and the British Empire!" with absolutely nothing of substance to it. "Sovereign powers" when it was the UK putting forward more laws to the EU than any other country in the bloc and the fact that we've been rejecting EU laws for it's entire existence as is a member state's right in the first place. At least we know when it comes to UK/EU politics deepelemblues is not to be taken remotely seriously as he's getting his talking points from the clueless populists who lead the idiot masses to vote for this disaster in the first place I guess. :lol
 

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tombstone blues
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“Why do I have to listen to what doctors say? Doctors have been wrong so many times in the past, surely I’m more qualified to decide what’s good and not good for my own body. Fuck the doctors”.

Is essentially supported by the same argument you’re providing but this time instead of your body, its an entire continent that’s getting affected.
What a foolish and silly attempt at argument.

Let's leave out for a moment the greatest most recent instance of doctors being wrong, the obesity epidemic in the West that is in large part thanks to medical experts incorrectly demonizing fat and not paying attention to the dangers of processed carbohydrates. This is the largest health issue facing Western countries and was partially caused by "doctors" working with, you guessed it, governments.

We'll just leave that colossal failure with extremely dangerous consequences, the mistakes of doctors is not really relevant here.

What is relevant is that you are attempting to compare one discipline, that of medical science, to another, that of political science.

It should be obvious that one is an apple and one is an orange, but apparently it is not obvious to you. Unfortunate, but unfortunate things are to be expected in political discussion.

Now one is a more or less exact science that relies on observation of cause and effect, quantifiable (though still largely inexact in many cases, but not inexact enough to matter) evidence and causal factors. A world of facts and figures. This would be the realm of doctors.

On the other hand you have the realm of head-candlers. Now we are talking about politics, about human nature and personality, about perception and faith and emotion. Sorry but there is no exact or even inexact science for that, with established laws and certain predictability. There is no comparison to be made between experts that deal in physical realities, which usually do conform to certain consistent laws, and experts that deal in human behavior, which conforms to only one law: that the laws are always changing. Doctors and political policy "experts" are as alike as hamburgers and Tuesday.

You're bad and you should feel bad for being so bad at what you attempted to do here.
 

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What a foolish and silly attempt at argument.

Let's leave out for a moment the greatest most recent instance of doctors being wrong, the obesity epidemic in the West that is in large part thanks to medical experts incorrectly demonizing fat and not paying attention to the dangers of processed carbohydrates. This is the largest health issue facing Western countries and was partially caused by "doctors" working with, you guessed it, governments.

We'll just leave that colossal failure with extremely dangerous consequences, the mistakes of doctors is not really relevant here.

What is relevant is that you are attempting to compare one discipline, that of medical science, to another, that of political science.

It should be obvious that one is an apple and one is an orange, but apparently it is not obvious to you. Unfortunate, but unfortunate things are to be expected in political discussion.

Now one is a more or less exact science that relies on observation of cause and effect, quantifiable (though still largely inexact in many cases, but not inexact enough to matter) evidence and causal factors. A world of facts and figures. This would be the realm of doctors.

On the other hand you have the realm of head-candlers. Now we are talking about politics, about human nature and personality, about perception and faith and emotion. Sorry but there is no exact or even inexact science for that, with established laws and certain predictability. There is no comparison to be made between experts that deal in physical realities, which usually do conform to certain consistent laws, and experts that deal in human behavior, which conforms to only one law: that the laws are always changing. Doctors and political policy "experts" are as alike as hamburgers and Tuesday.

You're bad and you should feel bad for being so bad at what you attempted to do here.
Lol, I don’t need to write 5 paragraphs to rebutt this.

Whatever discipline, you have experts in that discpline. These people are the best in their field and have the best skills and knowledge to handle problems in their field. The subjectivity of their field does not matter in the slightest. Otherwise, what’s the point of being an expert in political science? Is all that knowledge useless? Who are you to say you know better than the experts in that field. Only a fool would say that and you know it.
 
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tombstone blues
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Never mind that he's parroting talking points put forward by idiots like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson who's entire argument basically comes down to "we're Great Britain, bulldog spirit, stiff upper lip and the British Empire!" with absolutely nothing of substance to it. "Sovereign powers" when it was the UK putting forward more laws to the EU than any other country in the bloc and the fact that we've been rejecting EU laws for it's entire existence as is a member state's right in the first place. At least we know when it comes to UK/EU politics deepelemblues is not to be taken remotely seriously as he's getting his talking points from the clueless populists who lead the idiot masses to vote for this disaster in the first place I guess. :lol
What a pathetic sneering rant.

If you were not so ignorant as to imagine that you can ignore history, you would remember that what you deride as "bulldog spirit, stiff upper lip and the British Empire!" has been responsible for far more great events than has the enervated presumption to rule of your class, which has proudly taken up the fallen mantle of the hereditary aristocracy.

The UK putting forward more laws to the EU and rejecting EU laws from the beginning of its membership does not erase areas where the UK submitted to EU laws and regulations. Exerting sovereign prerogatives in one area does not proscribe submitting them in other areas. Obviously the UK did so in a manner that a great many of its people did not agree with. Your apparent solution to their discontent is to tell them to shut their dumb mouths and deal with it. How you did not understand the consequences of such hubris is a mystery, considering your self-presentation as superior in knowledge and intellect.

At least we know when it comes to UK/EU politics, or any politics, your grasp of the fundamentals is so deliberately narrow that nothing you say is to be taken as anything other than the desperate sneer of a degenerated ruling class that cannot deal like adults with a loosening of its grip on power.

Despite your hysterical attempts to frighten the people back into leaving power to you and not raising a fuss no matter how stupid your decisions are, Britain will be just fine.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
That's a sad statement. Sounds like you guys need someone like Trump to revive your national spirit and introduce some positive thinking. :)
National spirit means fuck all when your country doesn't produce anything of value and the one thing you excel at, nobody outside of the EU is asking for (financial services.) National pride is all well and good, but it doesn't put food on the table. Besides, hard to be proud of a country that doesn't want anything to do with every generation of my family outside of my own ;) .
 

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What a pathetic sneering rant.

If you were not so ignorant as to imagine that you can ignore history, you would remember that what you deride as "bulldog spirit, stiff upper lip and the British Empire!" has been responsible for far more great events than has the enervated presumption to rule of your class, which has proudly taken up the fallen mantle of the hereditary aristocracy.

The UK putting forward more laws to the EU and rejecting EU laws from the beginning of its membership does not erase areas where the UK submitted to EU laws and regulations. Exerting sovereign prerogatives in one area does not proscribe submitting them in other areas. Obviously the UK did so in a manner that a great many of its people did not agree with. Your apparent solution to their discontent is to tell them to shut their dumb mouths and deal with it. How you did not understand the consequences of such hubris is a mystery, considering your self-presentation as superior in knowledge and intellect.

At least we know when it comes to UK/EU politics, or any politics, your grasp of the fundamentals is so deliberately narrow that nothing you say is to be taken as anything other than the desperate sneer of a degenerated ruling class that cannot deal like adults with a loosening of its grip on power.

Despite your hysterical attempts to frighten the people back into leaving power to you and not raising a fuss no matter how stupid your decisions are, Britain will be just fine.
You didn't counter my point. All you did was kind of criticize me and my argument without actually countering it then launch straight into a rant why Brexit is good which I wasn't arguing in the first place nor am I interested in arguing.

How am I supposed to argue against someone who changes his arguments when it suits him?
 

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tombstone blues
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Lol, I don’t need to write 5 paragraphs to rebutt this.

Whatever discipline, you have experts in that discpline. These people are the best in their field and have the best skills and knowledge to handle problems in their field. The subjectivity of their field does not matter in the slightest. Otherwise, what’s the point of being an expert in political science? Is all that knowledge useless? Who are you to say you know better than the experts in that field. Only a fool would say that and you know it.
This is the level of critical thinking we have nowadays fpalm

The subjectivity of a field certainly does matter, no matter how much you wish to handwave that consideration away. How could it not? The more subjective a field, the wider the range of justifiable conclusions. 2 + 2 will always be 4. That is an objective field. Politics is not an objective field, never has been, never will be.

I don't know what the point to being a trained expert in political science is, considering how often such trained experts are wrong. Perhaps because they are human beings, with their own preferences and biases.

Or do you really think that experts in political science examine political questions the way a doctor examines a patient? If you think that... wow. The ignorance and naivete.

Is all that knowledge useless? Did I say that no? No. What is useless is your slavish worship of that knowledge.

Who am I to say I know better? Someone who has not been incorrect as often as they have been, for one. I did not incorrectly predict the result of the last US presidential election, or the Brexit referendum, or the Scottish independence referendum, as the majority of political experts did. I did not incorrectly pooh-pooh the idea the German position on migrant policy would cause political upheaval across the entire Continent. These are serious and weighty events, where the experts were wrong. Going back further, the consensus of political experts in the early and mid 1980s was the Soviet Union was on solid footing, and the Reagan/Thatcher policies of confrontation and competition were misguided and doomed to failure. They were wrong yet again. Expert political opinion in the United States believed that the People's Liberation Army would never cross the Yalu River in force to save North Korea from the advancing United Nations armies. Wrong. Expert political opinion considered the chances that yet another diplomatic flare-up in the Balkans of causing a general European war in 1914 as slim to none. Wrong again. I could go back farther. Expert political opinion in Great Britain at the time of the American Emancipation Proclamation was that the result of the Proclamation would be a bloody and ruinous race war. No such race war occurred. I could go on at extreme length detailing the failures of expertise in politics.

Your genuflection at the altar of expertise on non-physical questions is a practice that is already moldering in the ash heap of history.
 

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National spirit means fuck all when your country doesn't produce anything of value and the one thing you excel at, nobody outside of the EU is asking for (financial services.) National pride is all well and good, but it doesn't put food on the table. Besides, hard to be proud of a country that doesn't want anything to do with every generation of my family outside of my own ;) .
This is why you need a Trump. Someone with the negotiating and persuasion talent to manufacture assets out of thin air. Your thinking is far too constrained, much like the people who said it would be impossible for Trump to do any number of the things he's already done despite unprecedented opposition.
 

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This is the level of critical thinking we have nowadays fpalm

The subjectivity of a field certainly does matter, no matter how much you wish to handwave that consideration away. How could it not? The more subjective a field, the wider the range of justifiable conclusions. 2 + 2 will always be 4. That is an objective field. Politics is not an objective field, never has been, never will be.

I don't know what the point to being a trained expert in political science is, considering how often such trained experts are wrong. Perhaps because they are human beings, with their own preferences and biases.

Or do you really think that experts in political science examine political questions the way a doctor examines a patient? If you think that... wow. The ignorance and naivete.

Is all that knowledge useless? Did I say that no? No. What is useless is your slavish worship of that knowledge.

Who am I to say I know better? Someone who has not been incorrect as often as they have been, for one. I did not incorrectly predict the result of the last US presidential election, or the Brexit referendum, or the Scottish independence referendum, as the majority of political experts did. I did not incorrectly pooh-pooh the idea the German position on migrant policy would cause political upheaval across the entire Continent. These are serious and weighty events, where the experts were wrong. Going back further, the consensus of political experts in the early and mid 1980s was the Soviet Union was on solid footing, and the Reagan/Thatcher policies of confrontation and competition were misguided and doomed to failure. They were wrong yet again. Expert political opinion in the United States believed that the People's Liberation Army would never cross the Yalu River in force to save North Korea from the advancing United Nations armies. Wrong. Expert political opinion considered the chances that yet another diplomatic flare-up in the Balkans of causing a general European war in 1914 as slim to none. Wrong again. I could go back farther. Expert political opinion in Great Britain at the time of the American Emancipation Proclamation was that the result of the Proclamation would be a bloody and ruinous race war. No such race war occurred. I could go on at extreme length detailing the failures of expertise in politics.

Your genuflection at the altar of expertise on non-physical questions is a practice that is already moldering in the ash heap of history.
So, what you’re saying is, that because the field is so subjective, that different experts can have many different conclusions so you cannot rely on experts?

But then, isn’t it incredibly damning that despite the subjectivity of political science, that so many different experts have with all their different lines of thinking have almost all come to the same conclusion about Brexit?

Your point about subjectivity can only apply if different experts are all reaching different subjective conclusions. However, in this case near all of them are reaching the same conclusion on this topic that it is for all intents and purposes and objective conclusion. Is it not foolish to completely overlook the conclusion of all these experts?
 
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If that had been the current government I'd have emigrated to France or Australia already.
Immigrate? But you haven't even seen the 'Make Britain Great Again' manifesto the govt would run on, hand written of course by the hard right tory backbenchers and rural pensioners who make up the membership of the party:
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2013/06/the-alternative-queens-speech-the-full-list-of-40-rebel-bills.html

Putting the Great back in Britain!


The bold is a forgone conclusion, there is no way to succeed at Brexit. It's literally impossible to make us a better country post Brexit than we've been in the EU. Interesting to note that the one mainstream politician who'd flat out stop Brexit on his own back is Vince Cable - a Cambridge graduate and former fellow with a phd in economics. Corbyn's history is in Unions and journalism and May's got a 2nd in business. I don't think it's hard to see why I'd put Cable over both of them. :lol
Hey at least we're getting our blue passports back! Very important matter you know!


Also I thought May was a Geography student at Oxford?
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Immigrate? But you haven't even seen the 'Make Britain Great Again' manifesto the govt would run on, hand written of course by the hard right tory backbenchers and rural pensioners who make up the membership of the party:
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2013/06/the-alternative-queens-speech-the-full-list-of-40-rebel-bills.html

Putting the Great back in Britain!




Hey at least we're getting our blue passports back! Very important matter you know!


Also I thought May was a Geography student at Oxford?
Oh was it Geography? I misread and thought it said she had a business degree. I think that makes it worse no? A 2nd in Geography? I'll take a phd in economics over that any and every day of the week.
 

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We all knew this was gonna happen really, people who voted leave had no bloody idea what they were even voting for which makes them even more stupid. You know it was a daft idea when the main backers of brexit were the likes of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson who didn't even have a clue themselves what a mess it would leave us in and they are so called politicians :lmao
 

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An awful lot of casual snobbery in this thread.

I've written some long posts on this topic in the past and so frankly can't be bothered to do it all again here, but if people are seriously positing that there were no valid reasons to vote for Brexit then they are just as uninformed and uneducated as they accuse Leave voters of being.

Basically we will likely never know whether Brexit would have been a success due to the actions of the political class, who have ensured that it has been a complete shit show from the start with their determination to derail it at every possible juncture. This is something we all should be able to come together on, not continue to squabble and bicker about like children. They're fucking Remainers over along with the Leavers - we're all citizens of this country after all.
 

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Oh was it Geography? I misread and thought it said she had a business degree. I think that makes it worse no? A 2nd in Geography? I'll take a phd in economics over that any and every day of the week.
Yeah, second class Geography degree, graduated in 1977. Doesn't strike me as a Geography graduate tbh. I thought she would care alot about the environment, not that May is one of those crazy climate change deniers but she did scrap the Dept. for Energy and Climate Change when she got into office and the plastic straw ban thing I'm sure was something Gove pushed for.

In other Brexit news:
https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/

Would be nice if London and Northern Ireland were included since they voted remain in big numbers, Edinburgh and Glasgow are also the only other UK cities that make the top 50 of the Global Financial Centres Index (with London at no.1), Scotland being the only single market member of the UK could give those cities and the country a really big boost, Edinburgh is also quite regularly voted the UK's no.1 city to live in too, lots of opportunity for the city if such a thing were to happen.

Obviously one would imagine the UK govt wouldn't tolerate such an unpatriotic policy with Dacre and Farage on his LBC show having mass heart attacks, but then again if the EU were keen on having a part of the UK in the single market I guess May and Davis would back down as they always do :ha
 

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The reasons for voting Brexit we're always outweighed by the sheer gamble that you were voting for. Remain voters voted for the status quo and the security of the continued sustained growth seen in the EU, Leave voters voted to get are country back. Well, we got it back, and its a bit shit.
 

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An awful lot of casual snobbery in this thread.

I've written some long posts on this topic in the past and so frankly can't be bothered to do it all again here, but if people are seriously positing that there were no valid reasons to vote for Brexit then they are just as uninformed and uneducated as they accuse Leave voters of being.

Basically we will likely never know whether Brexit would have been a success due to the actions of the political class, who have ensured that it has been a complete shit show from the start with their determination to derail it at every possible juncture. This is something we all should be able to come together on, not continue to squabble and bicker about like children. They're fucking Remainers over along with the Leavers - we're all citizens of this country after all.
In your opinion, what were the economic reasons that voting leave made sense?
 

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This was always going to happen.

Its all about divide and conquer its what the Tory party has always been about,
You see it with the massive political age divide within the UK, You see it with Disabled People pretty much getting the blame for a global recession instead of the banks and middle classes, The Scots, Little Englanders,Londoners and second generation Immigrants who supports Brexit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028 Are you sure about that?
:cena
 

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This is why you need a Trump. Someone with the negotiating and persuasion talent to manufacture assets out of thin air. Your thinking is far too constrained, much like the people who said it would be impossible for Trump to do any number of the things he's already done despite unprecedented opposition.
Britain: Help!! Our house is burning down!

CamillePunk: Have you tried pouring petrol all over it??? It might make things better


We have enough idiotic, racist politicians of our own thanks. Don't need a Trump

In your opinion, what were the economic reasons that voting leave made sense?
It's like you've completely forgotten about the bananas thing already.

And, as someone else pointed out earlier, we're getting BLUE PASSPORTS!!! No way we could have those without leaving. Oh, we could?? Ah well :lol
 
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