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Discussion Starter #3
It's not the politics I'm worried about, it's the consequences of those politics and the idiot people who were "sick of experts" who fucked themselves (and the rest of us) for the manipulations of the very people looking to exploit them the most.
 

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This was always going to happen.

Something else the 52% obviously forgot to tell us about,
Honestly i don't know if my resentment for them will ever leave me completely.

The most googled thing in the UK on the night of the referendum result was,
'what does the EU actually do'
That should tell you everything you need to know about the path we are now heading towards,
Yet the only arguments i ever heard from the average Brexiter on the street was about immigration and the curve of a Banana.

The Daily Mail and TV Stations that gave Farage disproportionate amounts of air time seriously owe the UK an explanation.

Its all about divide and conquer its what the Tory party has always been about,
You see it with the massive political age divide within the UK, You see it with Disabled People pretty much getting the blame for a global recession instead of the banks and middle classes, The Scots, Little Englanders,Londoners and second generation Immigrants who supports Brexit.

They have torn the UK Apart and i fear people will not see the consequences until it is to late,
But hey at least we will have straight Bananas while Europe's most Dangerous criminals can walk the streets of the UK without our authorities having any idea of their previous behaviors.

Gosh it makes so angry still.

Cheers for sharing OP.
Peace and love guys,
and Be Excellent to each other....Always.
 

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Brexit continues to be a disaster. Leave voters continue to go 'remoaners' and remainers continue to call leavers racist or stupid.

We were let down massively by both campaigns and now being let down because no one has a fucking clue what they're doing. Maybot and her Tory cronies are weak as fuck and the EU are trying to be as petty as possible.

I'm a remainer and begrudge anyone who voted leave and anyone who campaigned for leave because we're royally fucked right now.
 

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Brexit kind of highlights one of the biggest issue with democracy. The majority of the population don’t know shit about even basic economics. So how do you then expect them to make such an important decision which can have huge economic ramifications to not only the UK, but Europe itself? You can’t.
 

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Literally everyone with half a brain or more said it would be.

:draper2

That's what happens when you listen to a bunch of mindless propaganda oppose to facts.

And, yes, I'm well aware of the irony in me, an American, saying that.


Brexit kind of highlights one of the biggest issue with democracy. The majority of the population don’t know shit about even basic economics. So how do you then expect them to make such an important decision which can have huge economic ramifications to not only the UK, but Europe itself? You can’t.
Hit the nail of the head.

Democracy requires intelligent voters and these days intelligent voters are unfortunately, and in a lot of cases by design, in the minority.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Brexit continues to be a disaster. Leave voters continue to go 'remoaners' and remainers continue to call leavers racist or stupid.

We were let down massively by both campaigns and now being let down because no one has a fucking clue what they're doing. Maybot and her Tory cronies are weak as fuck and the EU are trying to be as petty as possible.

I'm a remainer and begrudge anyone who voted leave and anyone who campaigned for leave because we're royally fucked right now.
The thing is though there was never ANYTHING that could've been done for us to have a "positive Brexit." It all hinges on 2 simple facts: The EU is the largest trading bloc in the world, we could never hope to remotely have as good a trade economy outside of it AND The EU isn't built in a way where you can be outside of it and remotely retain any of the positives you gain from being a member. The things the Leave campaign promised are actually impossible for the EU to give us. All of the various deals the gov is proposing can't happen, the EU is built in a way that doesn't allow them to happen. Everybody who did the research knew this already. There's a reason every single expert worth their salt said it'd be a disaster. The problem arose mostly from the "we're sick of experts, let's listen to the most incompetent mainstream politician in living memory (Nasty Nige) instead." If you're not going to listen to the people who actually know what they're talking about and instead make up fantasies in your head predicated on the former glories of an empire that no longer exists - this is what you get.
 

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It's all so depressing.

Given the way the majority of over 65's voted and the speed this is all playing out at, I do wonder how many of them will still be alive when the negotiations have actually finished.

Whilst the Remain campaign has been criticised, if you're dealing with people that claim politicians have an agenda whilst they believe Farage, The Sun and The Mail, as well as older people that seem to have solely voted because "they didn't get a vote to enter the EU", I'm not sure you could have reached those people with logic, facts and expert opinion presented and campaigned for well.

After the stupidity of the overall vote, there are some people that now understand what their vote to leave meant but insist it doesn't matter if it will make Britain worse, it would be undemocratic to go against the tiny majority. So, even though people are waking up to the fact we as a nation marching towards a cliff edge and have ever intention to jump off, "we" voted for it, so we have to proceed.

Should never ever have been a Referendum.
 

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The problem arose mostly from the "we're sick of experts, let's listen to the most incompetent mainstream politician in living memory (Nasty Nige) instead." If you're not going to listen to the people who actually know what they're talking about and instead make up fantasies in your head predicated on the former glories of an empire that no longer exists - this is what you get.
That’s not just a problem in England though, it’s happening everywhere. There’s s rebellion happening against intelligence. Right wingers in America literally at times run on a platform of “who do these educated people think they are with their scientific data and facts?!”
 

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I don't think there's any context in which Brexit wouldn't be a colossal fuck up. At this point I'm just trying to enjoy it, as there's at least some perverse enjoyment to be found in watching it all transpire, without any burden of personal responsibility.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I don't think there's any context in which Brexit wouldn't be a colossal fuck up. At this point I'm just trying to enjoy it, as there's at least some perverse enjoyment to be found in watching it all transpire, without any burden of personal responsibility.
I can't even get into that mentality tbh, a lot of my friends and family are in the lower working class and they're going to be hit hard. I've actually got a bunch of relatives moving back to Ireland over it and if my Italian grandparents weren't so old and frail we'd likely be taking them back to Sicily. It's the toughest part of it for me, seeing how it's affecting them. Both of them are over 90 and my Grandad had a stroke a couple years ago that sapped the life out of him. Now they're both confused and feel like they've become Pariahs and aren't welcome in a country they paid taxes in for decades. It's pretty upsetting.
 

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I can't even get into that mentality tbh, a lot of my friends and family are in the lower working class and they're going to be hit hard. I've actually got a bunch of relatives moving back to Ireland over it and if my Italian grandparents weren't so old and frail we'd likely be taking them back to Sicily. It's the toughest part of it for me, seeing how it's affecting them. Both of them are over 90 and my Grandad had a stroke a couple years ago that sapped the life out of him. Now they're both confused and feel like they've become Pariahs and aren't welcome in a country they paid taxes in for decades. It's pretty upsetting.
I'd cetainly stress the "trying" aspect of trying to enjoy it, as it's not always that easy!

While my circumstances mean there's far less of a direct impact for my friends/family compared to yourself (Parents have their mortgage paid off & collecting a decent pension, grandparents dead, etc), I worry about my daughter more than anything I guess, but it's going to effect most of her generation fairly equally anywa,y so more or less a level playing field.

I'm always going to find it hard to deal with the fact that while a lot of the working class (plenty of whom were hoodwinked into voting Brexit) are going to be hit worst, while the Borrises & Farages are going to be pretty much unscathed and probably even gain from it. I can only hold out hope that the more fucked things get, the better the odds of posive change, and hope that it's not an unstoppable societal downward spiral.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I'd cetainly stress the "trying" aspect of trying to enjoy it, as it's not always that easy!

While my circumstances mean there's far less of a direct impact for my friends/family compared to yourself (Parents have their mortgage paid off & collecting a decent pension, grandparents dead, etc), I worry about my daughter more than anything I guess, but it's going to effect most of her generation fairly equally anywa,y so more or less a level playing field.

I'm always going to find it hard to deal with the fact that while a lot of the working class (plenty of whom were hoodwinked into voting Brexit) are going to be hit worst, while the Borrises & Farages are going to be pretty much unscathed and probably even gain from it. I can only hold out hope that the more fucked things get, the better the odds of posive change, and hope that it's not an unstoppable societal downward spiral.
Yeah thankfully my immediate family are good, I helped my folks pay off their mortgage and I have one brother with serious mental health problems who lives with them, my other brother is a submariner in the navy. It's the extended family it's gonna mess up though and I have a LOT of extended family as both my paternal grandmother and great-grandmother had more than 10 children. We're probably moving though, my office has given me the opportunity to relocate to the continent so we'll likely do that before everything is finalised but I worry about leaving my folks as they're getting older. Convincing your parents to leave everything behind and move to another country is not the easiest thing to do in all honesty.

The only people really gaining from Brexit are all of the tax-dodgers who've been pushing for this ever since the EU decided to crack down on them - it's easier to take the economy hit than pay taxes on their substantial incomes. There's a reason the vast majority of MP's voted against Brexit, not for. It's the tax-dodgers and the Rupert Murdoch types who look to gain, the majority of the "elites" didn't even want this because of how bad it'd be for the economy.
 

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Theresa May is utterly useless as a Prime Minister, once was declared the new iron lady by the tabloids has all but lost it since the results of the June election last year when we all saw how weak she is domestically and internationally. She doesn't seem to have any good allies/friends among the world leader in Europe or the US (remember when some of the media were saying the relationship between Trump and May would be the new Reagan and Thatcher?) Only the CANZUK countries seem to have some time for her from what I've seen.

Here's an old story from back in February about a leadership challenge:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-michael-gove-and-jacob-rees-mogg-urged-to-overthrow-theresa-may-2018-2

Just imagine what a Brexit dream team led government with a brexit dominated cabinet would look like:

  • Boris Johnson - Prime Minister (Give him his dream job and sort out what he helped create, brexit, also called for freedom of movement between the UK and Australia, if he supports CANZUK and gets it created then we could always run away to Australia or Canada lol)
  • Michael Gove - Deputy Prime Minister, First Secretary of State, Exiting the EU Secretary (Would be Boris' right hand man, lets see if he's any better than Davis at the game)
  • Jacob Rees-Mogg - Chancellor of the Exchequer (would probably bring back the gold standard)
  • David Davis - Foreign Secretary (lets give him another foreign affairs brief and see how he does, would be interesting to see if he keeps his libertarian values (human rights) when visiting the US and China)
  • Iain Duncan Smith - Home Secretary (put him in charge of immigration reform and making plans for EU nationals here and Brits abroad in Europe, would likely go all Trump)
  • Andrew Rosindell - Leader of the House of Commons (Patriotic Englishman and Briton, a federalist who has advocated for an English Parliament which is cool I guess and has made various private bills that required flags and portraits of the HM The Queen at all airports as well as dedicated channels at airports for commonwealth citizens)
  • Penny Mordaunt - Defence Secretary (Has some history in defence, a brexiteer and female, might get some good PR out of it)
  • Priti Patel - Justice Secretary (No law experience but supports capital punishment, so what's not to love? )
  • Graham Brady - Education Secretary (Head of 1922 committee and is very Tory, perfect for reforming the education system, could also introduce an American style pledge of allegiance to Queen and Country that all pupils will recite at the start of school)
  • Nadhim Zahawi - International Trade Secretary (Think he had a career in business, could make trade deals in favour of big business, maybe)
  • Andrea Leadsom - Business Secretary (Had career in the City, she should be able to make businesses confident that they will thrive in Brexit Britain)
  • Esther McVey - Work & Pensions Secretary (Female IDS on steroids, even more cuts to DLA to appeal to C2 working class brexiteers and angry pensioners who advocate placing welfare users in concentrations camps and exterminating them)
  • Adam Afriyie - Environment Secretary (No clue what his stance is but the job is his, Goldsmith could get it but he kinda cares about it so that's a big no no)
  • Chris Grayling - Housing & Communities Secretary (Boring job for boring politician)
  • Zac Goldsmith - Transport Secretary (Ran unsuccessfully for Mayor of London which has huge role over Transport for London, could see his London proposals brought to the wider UK, whatever they are)
  • Dominic Raab - International Development Secretary (Brexiteer who appears alot on political programming but never got a cabinet job, lets give him one and he can do whatever he wants since its DFID)
  • John Whittingdale - Media, Culture, Sport Secretary (Had role previously, strongly opposed to license fee but kept it in last BBC charter likely due to centrist Cameron, could go all the way and privatise BBC and Channel 4)
  • Ross Thompson - Scotland Secretary (One of few Scottish politicians to back brexit, debates between him and Bute House would be interesting)
  • David Jones - Wales Secretary (one of Wales' top hardline Brexiteers and well on the right of the party)
  • Theresa Villiers - Northern Ireland Secretary (Was NI Secretary before and supported Brexit, she should be able to find a solution to the Irish border, right?)
  • Kwasi Kwarteng - Chief Secretary to the Treasury (dubbed by some media outlets as the 'Black Boris')
  • David Davies - Immigration Minister (on the far right of the party, he and IDS would get on well and would have big influence over immigration reform)
  • Philip Davies - Women and Equalities Minister (because lol)
Seems horrifying but part of me would love to see the fuckary that happens and to see them get to work and make a brexit a success as they said it would be. Just imagine if they failed and had to tell us why they couldn't achieve the Great British dream :cry
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Theresa May is utterly useless as a Prime Minister, once was declared the new iron lady by the tabloids has all but lost it since the results of the June election last year when we all saw how weak she is domestically and internationally. She doesn't seem to have any good allies/friends among the world leader in Europe or the US (remember when some of the media were saying the relationship between Trump and May would be the new Reagan and Thatcher?) Only the CANZUK countries seem to have some time for her from what I've seen.

Here's an old story from back in February about a leadership challenge:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-michael-gove-and-jacob-rees-mogg-urged-to-overthrow-theresa-may-2018-2

Just imagine what a Brexit dream team led government with a brexit dominated cabinet would look like:

  • Boris Johnson - Prime Minister (Give him his dream job and sort out what he helped create, brexit, also called for freedom of movement between the UK and Australia, if he supports CANZUK and gets it created then we could always run away to Australia or Canada lol)
  • Michael Gove - Deputy Prime Minister, First Secretary of State, Exiting the EU Secretary (Would be Boris' right hand man, lets see if he's any better than Davis at the game)
  • Jacob Rees-Mogg - Chancellor of the Exchequer (would probably bring back the gold standard)
  • David Davis - Foreign Secretary (lets give him another foreign affairs brief and see how he does, would be interesting to see if he keeps his libertarian values (human rights) when visiting the US and China)
  • Iain Duncan Smith - Home Secretary (put him in charge of immigration reform and making plans for EU nationals here and Brits abroad in Europe, would likely go all Trump)
  • Andrew Rosindell - Leader of the House of Commons (Patriotic Englishman and Briton, a federalist who has advocated for an English Parliament which is cool I guess and has made various private bills that required flags and portraits of the HM The Queen at all airports as well as dedicated channels at airports for commonwealth citizens)
  • Penny Mordaunt - Defence Secretary (Has some history in defence, a brexiteer and female, might get some good PR out of it)
  • Priti Patel - Justice Secretary (No law experience but supports capital punishment, so what's not to love? )
  • Graham Brady - Education Secretary Head of 1922 committee and is very Tory, perfect for reforming the education system, could also introduce an American style pledge of allegiance to Queen and Country that all pupils will recite at the start of school)
  • Nadhim Zahawi - International Trade Secretary (Think he had a career in business, could make trade deals in favour of big business, maybe)
  • Andrea Leadsom - Business Secretary (Had career in the City, she should be able to make businesses confident that they will thrive in Brexit Britain)
  • Esther McVey - Work & Pensions Secretary (Female IDS on steroids, even more cuts to DLA to appeal to C2 brexiteers and angry pensioners who hate their hard earned tax money going to welfare)
  • Adam Afriyie - Environment Secretary (No clue what his stance is but the job is his, Goldsmith could get it but he kinda cares about it so that's a big no no)
  • Chris Grayling - Housing & Communities Secretary (Boring job for boring politician)
  • Zac Goldsmith - Transport Secretary (Ran unsuccessfully for Mayor of London which has huge role over Transport for London, could see his London proposals brought to the wider UK, whatever they are)
  • Dominic Raab - International Development Secretary (Brexiteer who appears alot on political programming but never got a cabinet job, lets give him one and he can do whatever he wants since its DFID)
  • John Whittingdale - Media, Culture, Sport Secretary (Had role previously, strongly opposed to license fee but kept it in last BBC charter likely due to centrist Cameron, could go all the way and privatise BBC and Channel 4)
  • Ross Thompson - Scotland Secretary (One of few Scottish politicians to back brexit, debates between him and Bute House would be interesting)
  • David Jones - Wales Secretary (one of Wales' top hardline Brexiteers and well on the right of the party)
  • Theresa Villiers - Northern Ireland Secretary (Was NI Secretary before and supported Brexit, she should be able to find a solution to the Irish border, right?)
  • Kwasi Kwarteng - Chief Secretary to the Treasury (dubbed by some media outlets as the 'Black Boris')
  • David Davies - Immigration Minister (on the far right of the party, he and IDS would get on well and would have big influence over immigration reform)
  • Philip Davies - Women and Equalities Minister (because lol)
Seems horrifying but part of me would love to see the fuckary that happens and to see them get to work and make a brexit a success as they said it would be. Just imagine if they failed and had to tell us why they couldn't achieve the Great British dream :cry
The bold is a forgone conclusion, there is no way to succeed at Brexit. It's literally impossible to make us a better country post Brexit than we've been in the EU. Interesting to note that the one mainstream politician who'd flat out stop Brexit on his own back is Vince Cable - a Cambridge graduate and former fellow with a phd in economics. Corbyn's history is in Unions and journalism and May's got a 2nd in business. I don't think it's hard to see why I'd put Cable over both of them. :lol
 

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But really, so what?

Britain got along quite well in the past having to request extradition.

All this petulant behavior from the EU is to me further argument for Brexit, look at the contempt and ill-will the masters of the Continent hold towards the United Kingdom. Why should any of the UK's sovereign powers be submitted to such people? Why would any sane, self-respecting person want political union with such people? Because "I like getting to travel to Spain without hassle and I'll make more money!"

Sounds selfish and short-sighted and betrays a lack of self-confidence to me. Of course if governments in Europe didn't have their hands and most of their arms faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar up the ass of their economies, political structures like the EU would not have such power. No need for the EU for there to be free trade and easy travel across borders. Once again we see the drawbacks of the interventionist State. You Continentals have boxed yourself in politically and economically. At the behest of the "experts."

This crypto-technocratic appeal to "experts" is quite amusing though considering the extremely long list of "expert" failures in government, including the current debilitating failure and near-future total failure of the European Union itself thanks to politicians listening to "experts" and not the people. Carry on thinking those "experts" are adept at prescribing policy :lmao
 

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Discussion Starter #19
But really, so what?

Britain got along quite well in the past having to request extradition.

All this petulant behavior from the EU is to me further argument for Brexit, look at the contempt and ill-will the masters of the Continent hold towards the United Kingdom. Why should any of the UK's sovereign powers be submitted to such people? Why would any sane, self-respecting person want political union with such people? Because "I like getting to travel to Spain without hassle and I'll make more money!"

Sounds selfish and short-sighted to me.

This crypto-technocratic appeal to "experts" is quite amusing though considering the extremely long list of "expert" failures in government, including the near-future failure of the European Union itself thanks to politicians listening to "experts" and not the people. Carry on thinking those "experts" are adept at prescribing policy :lmao
If you knew anything at all about the UK economy you'd realise there is no good argument for Brexit. It's only ever a losing situation. How are we going to stand on our own two feet when we don't produce anything? Our economy is built around being the financial services provider for the EU, are you saying America and Canada are going to let us do their financial services for them instead? We don't fit any niche outside of the EU, we don't produce anything at a scale large enough to replace that knock to our economy. See this is exactly my point, you're somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about and I'm supposed to listen to you over people with phd's in economics who actually know the variables at play here? Please.
 
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But really, so what?

Britain got along quite well in the past having to request extradition.

All this petulant behavior from the EU is to me further argument for Brexit, look at the contempt and ill-will the masters of the Continent hold towards the United Kingdom. Why should any of the UK's sovereign powers be submitted to such people? Why would any sane, self-respecting person want political union with such people? Because "I like getting to travel to Spain without hassle and I'll make more money!"

Sounds selfish and short-sighted to me.

This crypto-technocratic appeal to "experts" is quite amusing though considering the extremely long list of "expert" failures in government, including the near-future failure of the European Union itself thanks to politicians listening to "experts" and not the people. Carry on thinking those "experts" are adept at prescribing policy :lmao
“Why do I have to listen to what doctors say? Doctors have been wrong so many times in the past, surely I’m more qualified to decide what’s good and not good for my own body. Fuck the doctors”.

Is essentially supported by the same argument you’re providing but this time instead of your body, its an entire continent that’s getting affected.
 
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