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Bret Hart the biggest star besides the big 3?

20K views 214 replies 88 participants last post by  Rain 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Legit. Aside from Hogan, Rock, Austin ? He may be. He was always bigger in the States than HBK and Taker in the 90s. Even when Vince tried other things, the one constant was Bret, he kept going back to him over and over (before the attitude era, and titles switched like crazy, he was the only 5 time world champ along with Hogan). All the kiddies these days who appreciate work rate over foolish gimmicks, need to understand he was the very first to do it on skill alone, he paved the way. He laid the foundation for people like HBK, Benoit, and Angle to have success in the main event scene.

He was far bigger in Canada and internationally than almost anyone, many wrestling folk have said he was as big, if not bigger overseas than Hogan. That is a massive accomplishment that sometimes goes overlooked.

When his DVD was released in 05', it outsold every other DVD WWE ever did.

His name, for better or worse, is still associated with perhaps the most infamous match of all time.

He is still the only wrestle to appear on The Simpson's, when it was in its heyday, and one of the most cultural and dominate shows on TV.

He is certainly more of a household name than someone like Shawn Micheals or Eddie etc...who most wouldnt know unless they at least casually watched WWE. Bret Hart seems to be more causally known for sure.

His book outsold HBKs and Flairs and many others. It all counts.

Then theres the fact he hasnt really wrestled in a WWE ring since 1997, or had a real run I mean, 24 years! Yet his name constantly comes up in amongst wrestling legend. He didnt have the benefit of an additional 8 year run for a whole new generation like HBK, yet still seems to be considered a tier above to many. Even younger fans of the 2000s. I cant even imagine if he could have had 5 or 6 more years and could wrestle Rock, Jericho, Angle, Eddie etc...he might very well have been undoubtedly known as the best ever then.

His matches age like fine wine. In a world of no selling and flips, his excellent work and the absolute mastercraft of this sport almost seems even more appreciated now. He was a true artist.

What a fuckin legend!
 
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#7 ·
Yep. A big draw and star is always asked to leave the company as champion during head to head competition takes place AND then helps so called "draw" get a big money contract with the competition. WCW then dies shortly after Bret is kicked out of the WWF by his boss.

Oh yeah. Big time star.

Also, a wrestler getting asked by his boss to leave the company and go to the competition has never happened before in the history of wrestling, and hasn't happened since.

And on top of being a TERRIBLE draw, he got paid twice more than the next two guys in the company and more than twice more everyone else in the company. Add to that he wasn't drawing ratings or PPV buys, and Vince kicked him out on his ass and did the right thing. As we saw, that was absolutely the correct call.
 
#131 ·
Yep. A big draw and star is always asked to leave the company as champion during head to head competition takes place AND then helps so called "draw" get a big money contract with the competition. WCW then dies shortly after Bret is kicked out of the WWF by his boss.

Oh yeah. Big time star.
Also, a wrestler getting asked by his boss to leave the company and go to the competition has never happened before in the history of wrestling, and hasn't happened since.

And on top of being a TERRIBLE draw, he got paid twice more than the next two guys in the company and more than twice more everyone else in the company. Add to that he wasn't drawing ratings or PPV buys, and Vince kicked him out on his ass and did the right thing. As we saw, that was absolutely the correct call.
Damn, strawmanning hard with this.

Vince was in the shitter financially when he asked Bret to leave because his guaranteed contract was signed at a different time financially and was too large. On his way out he made Stone Cold, solidified HBK as the biggest heel in the business, and in a round about way made the Mr. McMahon character that would help carry them back into the black.

WCW was creatively bankrupt and dropped the ball with Bret and everyone else they had, to keep running the played out nWo angle and whatever the hell Vince Russo was doing towards the end. Then the AOL merger took away Ted's backing and Jamie Kellner put the nail in the coffin.

You're gonna blame WCW folding 3 years later on Bret? Bret Hart was retired a year before they folded.

I mean I see the avatar but, is this some weird gimmick or is this your own rewriting of the commonly accepted narrative.

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As for the original question. I'd still have to say no. Bret's an all timer, but Savage is almost inarguably a bigger star when it comes to the mainstream and even just amongst wrestling fans, and due to his gimmick and longevity Undertaker has easily surpassed him. Roddy Piper is another that would be ahead of him. Flair, despite his longest runs with WWF/WWE being towards the end of his career, is also waaay ahead of the curve. People who don't even watch or know wrestling still know who Andre the Giant is and he's been dead for 25 years.

If we're going international or outside WWF/WWE and pre-Vince Jr. then it's not even close.

I know how much people shit on Meltzer for being a workrate mark but the guy is also a pretty damn solid historian and this was his rankings for biggest draws by decade based off the numbers.

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"1900 - 1909:

  1. Frank Gotch
  2. George Hackenschmidt
1910 - 1919:

  1. Joe Stecher
  2. Ed "Strangler" Lewis
  3. Frank Gotch
  4. Wladek Zbyszko
  5. Stanislaus Zbyszko
  6. Jim Londos
  7. Great Gama, George Hackenschmidt, George Lurich, Charlie Cutler
1920 -1929:

  1. Ed "Strangler" Lewis
  2. Jim Londos
  3. John Pesek
  4. Joe Stecher and Stanislaus Zbyszko
  5. Earl Caddock
  6. Gus Sonnenberg
  7. Ray Steele
  8. Dick Shikat
  9. Wayne Munn
1930 - 1939:

  1. Jim Londos
  2. Everett Marshall
  3. Dick Shikat and Ed Don George
  4. Ed "Strangler" Lewis and Vincent Lopez
  5. Gus Sonnenberg
  6. Man Mountain Dean
  7. Danno O'Mahoney
  8. Ray Steele
1940 - 1949:

  1. Bill Longson
  2. Lou Thesz
  3. Whipper Billy Watson
  4. Yvon Robert
  5. Gorgeous George
  6. Sandor Szabo and Wlasislow Talum
  7. Buddy Rogers
  8. Maurice "French Angel" Tillet
  9. Frank Sexton
1950 - 1959:

  1. Argentina Rocca
  2. Lou Thesz
  3. Killer Kowalski
  4. Buddy Rogers
  5. Whipper Billy Watson
  6. Rikidozan
  7. El Santo
  8. Verne Gagne and Edouard Carpentier
  9. Wilbur Snyder
1960 - 1969:

  1. Bruno Sammartino
  2. Gene Kiniski
  3. Dick the Bruiser
  4. Johnny Valentine
  5. Lou Thesz
  6. Buddy Rogers
  7. Giant Baba
  8. Ray Stevens
  9. Bobo Brazil
  10. Fritz Von Erich
1970 - 1979:

  1. Bruno Sammartino
  2. The Sheik
  3. Superstar Billy Graham
  4. Andre the Giant
  5. Pedro Morales
  6. Harley Race
  7. The Crusher
  8. Dory Funk Jr. and Ernie Ladd
  9. Dick the Bruiser
1980 - 1989:

  1. Hulk Hogan
  2. Ric Flair
  3. Andre the Giant
  4. Bob Backlund
  5. Randy Savage
  6. Road Warriors
  7. Antonio Inoki
  8. Roddy Piper
  9. Harley Race, Sgt. Slaughter, Paul Orndorff
1990 - 1999:

  1. Konnan
  2. Shinya Hashimoto
  3. Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair
  4. Perro Aguayo
  5. Keiji Muto
  6. Undertaker
  7. Bret Hart
  8. Steve Austin
  9. Nobuhiko Takada
2000 - 2009:

  1. HHH
  2. Mistico
  3. John Cena
  4. The Rock
  5. Perro Aguayo Jr.
  6. Kurt Angle
  7. Ultimo Guerrero
  8. Randy Orton
  9. Kenta Kobashi and Chris Benoit
MAJOR NOTE: If you didn't read the entire article, he's basing the lists off of wrestlers that drew 10,000+ people over a decade. The reason it gets a little weird at the end is the actual top drawers (Steve Austin and The Rock) only had ~5 year runs that intersected two decades (90's and 00's). While Austin unarguably has drawn the most of any wrestler ever, Konnan/Triple H just worked more shows/more consistently in their respective decades."
 
#9 ·
In his heyday he was bigger than people seem willing to give him credit for, but sadly not that big, no.
 
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#12 ·
People on here are so far up HBK’s backside. So many hbk Stan’s in here but we all know the boy toy didn’t draw a dime. Lowest drawing champion in company history before seth took the mantle. The fact is bret was the man during the new generation era. Also showstopper the only reason why Vince wouldn’t pay bret is because bret didn’t fit the attitude era like style. Bret was old school and wanted the show to be family friendly but wwf was heading in a different direction and it had nothing to do with his talent.
Bret is the goat technical wrestler ever and he made everyone look good. Since I became a fan, the touch went like this. Hogan, hart, austin, Rock, Cena, Reigns.
Bret was the FOTC and u folks wanna act like he was a nobody what a joke.
The biggest Canadian wrestling star ever and he was hugely popular overseas especially in Germany and the UK.
Bret ignited the Mr McMahon character and he made austin a made man which austin also acknowledged. Bitter hbk fans so insecure when it comes to the hitman. Hbk just played better politics.
 
#17 ·
Rock/Hogan/Austin are without a shadow of doubt the three biggest superstars in wrestling history.
Below them there is a whole bunch, even if we're talking about post 1984 WrestleMania era.
Bret Hart/Undertaker/HBK/Ric Flair/ John Cena.... it's really a toss-up as case of 4th biggest superstar could be made for any of them. Then there are anomalies like Goldberg and Lesnar. Having said that, subjectively, Hart would be my number 4 as well. So there you go OP.🙂
 
#24 ·
I agree 100%.

It’s sad to see quite a few marks think guys like Flair, HBK or Undertaker were ever bigger or better than Bret.

It’s historically inaccurate.

IMO a generation of fans have been worked by 2000’s WWE revisionism because WWE wanted to make as much money as possible off the ageing names of Flair, HBK and Undertaker, whereas they didn’t have that incentive with Bret.

That’s the fact of the matter.

Bret’s work stands up to closer scrutiny and will be remembered better in 20 years when a fresh generation goes back and compares his work to Flair/HBK/Taker’s for themselves.
 
#32 ·
I agree 100%.

It’s sad to see quite a few marks think guys like Flair, HBK or Undertaker were ever bigger or better than Bret.

It’s historically inaccurate.

IMO a generation of fans have been worked by 2000’s WWE revisionism because WWE wanted to make as much money as possible off the ageing names of Flair, HBK and Undertaker, whereas they didn’t have that incentive with Bret.

That’s the fact of the matter.

Bret’s work stands up to closer scrutiny and will be remembered better in 20 years when a fresh generation goes back and compares his work to Flair/HBK/Taker’s for themselves.
I'll just add that I agree that if Bret Hart had the opportunity to return in the 00's and never got his career cut short, WWE would have pushed him hard like they did HBK and Undertaker. Really think about that whether you like Hart or not. Vince Mcmahon and the WWE kept rehashing the Mr. Mcmahon character and wrestler vs. company angle which was all based off Bret Hart's Montreal Screwjob.

Hart comes back and could you imagine how much push he would get simply off being the guy who birthed Mr. Mcmahon? Bret's last two ppv matches for the championship was against HBK and UT with the whole drama of Slam and Survivor Series. The generation of fans of this time period would have a whole different outlook on Bret.

Bret Hart was the WWF CHAMPION over Undertaker and HBK in 1996 and 1997. Hart was a guy who kept himself in shape and could have easily be similar to UT and HBK. Look how Ric Flair was used during that 00's time period and he was an advanced age to Bret.

Even if Bret declined to the point of say how Savage was in WCW, guys like Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio, Kurt Angle, Lesnar, Edge, and so on would have been able to work at the worst decent matches with Hart.

Here is something else to think about. Bret Hart in 1996 hand picked Steve Austin because he felt he was the "best wrestler in the world" and we know how Hart put him over. Bret Hart liked John Cena and said Cena reminded him of himself, but believed he couldn't be a heel due to him not having that mean streak(not sure about that though since Cena heel on smackdown is what got him over to begin with).

Now if Hart did for Austin what he did because he saw him as potential to be the best. Imagine if Bret Hart came back in the 00's to work with John Cena? A guy he considered to be like himself as the face of the company and doing all the charity work etc. Bret Hart vs John Cena imo would be Hart's mission to make Cena not get "You Can't Wrestle" chants.
Imagine, Bret Hart and John Cena at WM 22? It would be totally different than John Cena vs HHH at WM 22 with the same storyline. I'm calling it now that we could have very well see another SummerSlam 92 type deal / performance where Hart totally puts Cena in a new light with fans who thought he was a paper champion.
 
#25 ·
Also, a wrestler getting asked by his boss to leave the company and go to the competition has never happened before in the history of wrestling, and hasn't happened since.

And on top of being a TERRIBLE draw, he got paid twice more than the next two guys in the company and more than twice more everyone else in the company. Add to that he wasn't drawing ratings or PPV buys, and Vince kicked him out on his ass and did the right thing. As we saw, that was absolutely the correct call.
I'm not saying you're wrong but it's just funny to me reading this and then seeing you're name and avatar. I can't help but read it like it's the true words of The Showstopper.
 
#29 ·
Bret was huge in early 90's all around the world.I would say after Hulk he was the second one who became a global superstar . The guys and girls loved bret.
Taker, Cena and Shawn are up there but Bret had a shorter carrer and that hurt him. Just imagine him working with all the new talent . I would give him top 5 with taker and flair. Shawn was not a draw compared to these guys.
As for being a leader and a champion shawn is not even top 10 btw.
I feel that after the attitude era (which he was against all the adult stuff )he would have came back to wwe and had amazing matches like taker had with shawn and that would have helped him become greater with the younger fans that are here in this forum.
 
#31 ·
Not even close. He doesn't get to John Cena's jock strap. There's a reason Cena was undisputed fotc for a decade while Bret was getting replaced every week. Bret was never a draw in the States. Ever. Bringing up Hulkamania on fumes is a poor example. He struggled, Vince was constantly looking for a real star then would just go back to Bret as his default guy.

As for Shawn Hart might have been bigger than Michaels in his 1st run but once you factor in the 2nd run it's muddy.
 
#39 ·
I don't know why people are flipping out over this thread. If Bret had as long of a career as HBK & Taker, he would probably be #4 (if you don't put either Sammartino or Cena there). As it stands, though, I think during the 2000s HBK and Taker surpassed Hart in overall contributions to WWE. But he's still on the second tier alongside those two, Andre, Sammartino and Cena.
 
#43 ·
Whatever your opinion, history will be kind to Bret. Wrestlemania is the history book for wrestling, and from the start, Hogan dominates and then Bret. After Wrestlemania X, future generations will mostly just watch WM17 for Austin/Rock, WMXX for the milestone, probably Rock/Cena, WMXXX for the milestone, and maybe the pandemic WMs out of curiosity, then every milestone one after that. A lot of the ones in between will become less remembered over time.

And if AEW eventually overtakes WWE to carry the torch of wrestling history into the future, well Bret presented their world title, so he’ll be seen there too.
 
#48 ·
Whatever your opinion, history will be kind to Bret. Wrestlemania is the history book for wrestling, and from the start, Hogan dominates and then Bret. After Wrestlemania X, future generations will mostly just watch WM17 for Austin/Rock, WMXX for the milestone, probably Rock/Cena, WMXXX for the milestone, and maybe the pandemic WMs out of curiosity, then every milestone one after that. A lot of the ones in between will become less remembered over time.

And if AEW eventually overtakes WWE to carry the torch of wrestling history into the future, well Bret presented their world title, so he’ll be seen there too.
I think this sums up what I was getting at. Coming off the 80's wrestling boom, Bret Hart was known and positioned as the heir apparent after Hogan, Savage, and Warrior. He got the throne after the steroid and sex scandal debacles and the talent roster drying up. Still, though he was the bridge for what wrestling would become in the main events with quality of matches that guys like Taker, HBK, Austin, Angle, and Lesnar would have. His star is more than just about drawing.

After Hogan, The Rock, and Austin, I always thought Andre The Giant would be the next on the list. He was a big draw and special attraction in his time, and a pop culture icon. Everyone knows who Andre The Giant is, even people who aren't wrestling fans know the name.
You know what? Andre The Giant has been disrespected in this thread lol.

Everyone knows who Andre The Giant is even if you don't watch wrestling past or present. That is the epitome of top 5 star.
 
#49 ·
I think as time goes on Bret's legacy is going to age better w/ how the current product is and how kayfabe and social media just murdered pretty much any semblance of realism there was to the business (even though he kinda opened the curtain on it lol). His body of work was always top 10 to me.

As far top being biggest outside of the big 3 though I can't get w/ that.
 
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