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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Anyone noticed that? I heard that the change to make Sheamus a face was because WWE were lacking in credible faces for upper mid card events. Probably untrue but the fact there's a lack of faces still stands.

Here we are with two faces in Sheamus and Orton on SmackDown who are credible enough to be world heavyweight champion, whereas there are five heels in Mark Henry, Alberto, Daniel Bryan, Christian (soon), and a possible up-and-coming Rhodes.

And even on RAW, though there are only a few faces in the title picture there if you pretend Rocky, Brock and Cena aren't interested. Currently there's one face in Punk and three heels as Henry jumps shows, Kane (he's being booked as a contender imo) and Jericho clearly filling a gap.

Even in the mid card, there's limited faces, Santino and Clay are the only ones gunning for that US title, whereas there's Tensai (it seems likely he will feud and beat the hell out of Santino and win the title soon), Ziggler, Swagger, and even Miz (if this semi-likely face turn / move to SD doesn't happen).

Then there's the IC championship, which seems there's only a max of four people contending for it. Big Show, the face champion, Cody Rhodes, the heel ex-champion and possibly even Christian and Alberto Del Rio, if they don't actually move into the world heavyweight title contention.

On top of the clear lack of used credible championship material, the WWE insists on putting face talent that is still over, and credible mid-card champions at least, like Truth, Kofi, and Ryder, on Superstars, or not use them at all.

Now, adding the fact that even if you count those three half-used faces, there's still a lack of top faces. But what's happening now? WWE is moving a heel in Cesaro from FCW to WWE in what seems to be a heel role, pushing re-debut characters like Tensai into a heel role, and after the England squash, it seems Ryback too. It also looks like Ambrose may debut soon, and obviously as a heel if he does.

Obviously WWE is a little preoccupied with the Cena/Lesnar feud (too much -_-) to worry too much about anything else, seeing as it's the main attraction by far for most viewers, and I can't blame them. I can't say I agree, but from a business standpoint it's clearly a good move, otherwise a company like WWE wouldn't do it.

Regardless of that, the asinine heel-movement of the WWE as of late has been ridiculous. We definitely don't need any more heels, though a lot of the IWC <3 heels for some reason.

Just realised I screwed up the title
 

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Re: Booker Logic: Not enough heels, get more heels.

But if the heels are just jobbed out like they have been, no one takes them seriously. WWE has too many heels compared to faces, true, but too many credible faces compared to credible heels.
 

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Re: Booker Logic: Not enough heels, get more heels.

I think the problem is not enough credible, believable heels. I feel WWE made big mistakes in keeping Orton and Cena as faces for as long as they have, when turning them both heel would create better angles and also allow WWE to groom the next big star. Instead, the best heel isn't even a wrestler and we're left with several guys who get no kind of true heel heat.

The closest thing to a top heel I can see in WWE is Cody Rhodes. Everybody else is truly lacking something to get to that next level. So in turn instead of the plain, unentertaining heels we have, they should turn Orton, Cena and Punk as heels. That, in turn, could allow them to push Kofi, Sheamus, R-Truth or another mid card face as potential main event guys.

Considering that the top face champions on each show usually run thru the entire roster within 3 months and WWE having a lack of strong heels, it makes the title matches seem less important. Especially when for the past year, WWE has been more focused on booking their top guy against two guys who aren't even full time performers.

So, I don't think the problem is too many heels. It's too many pointless heels who don't get enough of a reaction. Orton and Punk are much better as heels and even as a Cena fan, I'm starting to get really pissed at the direction he's heading in. I couldn't careless about Lord Tensai or Ryback coming in as monster heels, when eventually they will job to either Cena, Orton or Punk.

Also, when was the last time a heel had a lengthy reign as champion and it actually worked? WWE's current crop of heels, aside from maybe 2 or 3, aren't believable as heels and are interchangable with any lower mid card face, as they get no reaction and aren't adding anything to the program, especially at the main event level.
 

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You're right, there's way too many heels on the roster. There should be a couple of face turns on the way you'd like to think, but with any luck they won't be rushed face turns that bomb hard. It seems like WWE don't really want to push any faces into the midcard, and when they do they give up on them fast, like Justin Gabriel. Kofi's lucky he even still gets pops from the crowd, WWE have not booked him properly for a long time. I think Ryback's going to be a face, but his squash on smackdown the other day was pretty heelish (squashing a local jobber after he cuts a face promo). If they make Ryback a heel, then I don't know what creative would be thinking.
 

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Re: Booker Logic: Not enough heels, get more heels.

But if the heels are just jobbed out like they have been, no one takes them seriously. WWE has too many heels compared to faces, true, but too many credible faces compared to credible heels.
I'd personally argue that the derth of geniune midcard faces IS one of the reasons why the heel roster lacks credibility.
 

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It does seem strange, seems we are overloading too much on heels presently.

^I think this is right. We have a ME of faces, the only heels who are close to this level are Y2J/Kane/Henry/Christian all older guys, and you would still put them under the top 4 faces. Thankfully Brock has filled a huge void for now but he isn't going to be around forever.

Cena/Punk/Sheamus/Orton/Show - Top 4 guys in the company plus Show who still gets booked strong.

The MC heels are slightly higher than the MC faces but a bit below the ME faces.

Del Rio/Bryan/Miz/Ziggler/Barrett/Rhodes/Swagger - Midcard heels who are mainly all anyway, still up-comers.

Kofi/Truth/Ryder/Santino - Midcard faces who mainly are more comedy/joke characters without too much credibility.

They've already surpassed the lower card faces but aren't on the level of the ME faces so bounce around feuding and losing to them, just generally staying a level underneath them.

A stronger midcard of faces would catapult them up towards the ME faces. Add in Show/Ryback/Brodus, plus some more face-turns of the more cowardly heels now that we are getting some meaner midcard heels. who then in turn elevate some midcard faces to the upper midcard/ME, yet they are stuck in a limbo between the two levels ATM. Still not credible enough.

If there were more heels added to the ME, one or two of them already there can turn down the line and be replaced. Thus making more top level heels. At least if there were a better (face/heel) midcard (balance) we would be closer to a better spread than now, and could elevate either or to fill whatever needs must.

It's hard to see how stars are going to be built considering the possibilities and fact part-timers and returning stars are the focus. But if they can sort the face/heel balances out we get could back to an actual balanced card, and vice-versa. They're getting neither presently but it looks like things should be changing in many ways for the better with the new guys that have all debuted recently and those returning.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Re: Booker Logic: Not enough heels, get more heels.

But if the heels are just jobbed out like they have been, no one takes them seriously. WWE has too many heels compared to faces, true, but too many credible faces compared to credible heels.
Though there's literally double the heels than faces, there's a lack of credibility for both. The credible heels still vastly outweigh the credible faces.

I think the problem is not enough credible, believable heels. I feel WWE made big mistakes in keeping Orton and Cena as faces for as long as they have, when turning them both heel would create better angles and also allow WWE to groom the next big star. Instead, the best heel isn't even a wrestler and we're left with several guys who get no kind of true heel heat.
This is true too, but there's a bunch of non-credible faces too.
The only two heels that are actual wrestlers that get reactions are Bryan and Brock (Brock's being booked as a heel and idk why), and they both get face pops regardless.

The closest thing to a top heel I can see in WWE is Cody Rhodes. Everybody else is truly lacking something to get to that next level. So in turn instead of the plain, unentertaining heels we have, they should turn Orton, Cena and Punk as heels. That, in turn, could allow them to push Kofi, Sheamus, R-Truth or another mid card face as potential main event guys.
Cody is definitely one of, if not *the* top heel wrestler at the moment, because as I said the others get weird face reactions and Cody gets a substantial amount of heat on a good day. Swagger actually got a heap of heat in his match against Truth (like 1/5 of the crowd were actually rooting for him which turned the other 3/5 or so to say Swagger sucks) on Superstars which says something. He should be given more time to prance around the ring like he did.

Considering that the top face champions on each show usually run thru the entire roster within 3 months and WWE having a lack of strong heels, it makes the title matches seem less important. Especially when for the past year, WWE has been more focused on booking their top guy against two guys who aren't even full time performers.
Sheamus definitely. Santino has been getting lucky and winning due to interference w/ Clay. Big Show hasn't done a single bloody thing since becoming champion, and Punk is having a questionable feud with Jericho.

All four male singles champions are faces - and your point is right. The faces win too often now-a-days, it is also a big factor in credibility of both themselves and opponents.

So, I don't think the problem is too many heels. It's too many pointless heels who don't get enough of a reaction. Orton and Punk are much better as heels and even as a Cena fan, I'm starting to get really pissed at the direction he's heading in. I couldn't careless about Lord Tensai or Ryback coming in as monster heels, when eventually they will job to either Cena, Orton or Punk.
The problem is too many heels. How can heels have a point when the WWE don't book them at all?

Also, when was the last time a heel had a lengthy reign as champion and it actually worked? WWE's current crop of heels, aside from maybe 2 or 3, aren't believable as heels and are interchangable with any lower mid card face, as they get no reaction and aren't adding anything to the program, especially at the main event level.
Cody Rhodes and Mark Henry both had good reigns as IC and WH champion respectively.

You're right, there's way too many heels on the roster. There should be a couple of face turns on the way you'd like to think, but with any luck they won't be rushed face turns that bomb hard. It seems like WWE don't really want to push any faces into the midcard, and when they do they give up on them fast, like Justin Gabriel. Kofi's lucky he even still gets pops from the crowd, WWE have not booked him properly for a long time. I think Ryback's going to be a face, but his squash on smackdown the other day was pretty heelish (squashing a local jobber after he cuts a face promo). If they make Ryback a heel, then I don't know what creative would be thinking.
Yea, as a bunch of posters have said in the time I've been here, it's the recent start-stop pushing of, mostly faces, that is ruining the WWE right now. Gabriel wasn't really getting considerably over and his slot could've been taken over by people like Kofi and Truth though. But then again, was Mark Henry really over with anyone other than members of the IWC? Not really. Neither was Rhodes... Or ADR even.

I'd personally argue that the derth of geniune midcard faces IS one of the reasons why the heel roster lacks credibility.
I'd personally blame the booking of both faces and heels; but then again half of every show is RAW rebounds and Lesnar/Cena stuff, not much can really be done if they don't have to care.


It does seem strange, seems we are overloading too much on heels presently.

^I think this is right. We have a ME of faces, the only heels who are close to this level are Y2J/Kane/Henry/Christian all older guys, and you would still put them under the top 4 faces. Thankfully Brock has filled a huge void for now but he isn't going to be around forever.
Problem with that is Brock won't get proper heel reactions, and Jericho's leaving soon. Christian is probably on one of his last stints too if he gets injured again, which I hope he doesn't.

Cena/Punk/Sheamus/Orton/Show - Top 4 guys in the company plus Show who still gets booked strong.

The MC heels are slightly higher than the MC faces but a bit below the ME faces.

Del Rio/Bryan/Miz/Ziggler/Barrett/Rhodes/Swagger - Midcard heels who are mainly all anyway, still up-comers.

Kofi/Truth/Ryder/Santino - Midcard faces who mainly are more comedy/joke characters without too much credibility.

They've already surpassed the lower card faces but aren't on the level of the ME faces so bounce around feuding and losing to them, just generally staying a level underneath them.
Yea, it doesn't help when the upper mid card heels lose to a main event face, then beat a mid-card face the next week.

It's hard to see how stars are going to be built considering the possibilities and fact part-timers and returning stars are the focus. But if they can sort the face/heel balances out we get could back to an actual balanced card, and vice-versa. They're getting neither presently but it looks like things should be changing in many ways for the better with the new guys that have all debuted recently and those returning.
Honestly, the face - heel balance on the roster isn't that bad. It's a problem that WWE have the mid card heels always losing to main event faces, and then those same heels beating the faces on their level a lot.
A lot of the faces are actually on Superstars and NXT regularly or not even on any programming at all, see Kofi, Truth, Kidd, Ryan, Zeke. Though the last 2 are green and not many people care about them, they still take a "face slot" though they do nothing with it.
 
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