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Are you living under the same household? Do you have permission to discipline them if they are young kids? Are you providing for them financially? What are your responsible for in their lives?
I'm the awesome uncle. I watch them and spoil them. I don't 'discipline' them per se but I yell at them all the time and if their parents are not around I will grab them if I have to.

Easy, if you are very poor you have far limited options compared to someone in the middle class to say pull a kid back from bad peer pressure/influence. If you are struggling to make ends meet, your case for not doing the wrong things for material gains is a tougher sell. If you are poor, it is much harder to provide a decent education for your kids, compared to better off families who can provide multiple opportunities for their children.

This of course isn't saying if the size of your bank account is huge, you will raise good kids or instill good values. That is not what I am saying at all. Just look at the current first family who were all raised with a silver spoon in their mouth and turned out to be horrible human beings.
My point exactly. If wealthy children can also turn out to be terrible, then obviously there are far greater factors at work than just having financial means.

Stealing doesn't become okay just because you 'want' something you can't have. That is something all parents have a responsibility to teach their children. If they truly love and respect you, and you emphasize how important it is to do the right thing, then it is going to be a lot harder for them to steer off the wrong path... and if they do then it is your job as a parent to discipline them and set them straight. This is true whether you have a million dollars in your account or a hundred dollars. As a parent it is also your job to stress the importance of education and doing well in school. Learn who their friends are and make sure they are not hanging with the wrong crowd. These are obstacles sure, but they are just that... obstacles. They can be overcome.

Our actions in life are determined by our character, and no one has a greater influence in shaping a child's character than their own parents. I mean despite what people like @yeahbaby! and @Reaper would like to argue, if you were to pick any 14-15 year old gang member at random there is likely going to be a 99% chance that both of their parents either weren't around to begin with or they themselves live in dysfunction. No amount of 'research' they pull out of their ass undoes this indisputable fact.
 

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I'm the awesome uncle. I watch them and spoil them. I don't 'discipline' them per se but I yell at them all the time and if their parents are not around I will grab them if I have to.
Just from this quote I can see you have no clue what is involved in parenting to think this is 'so close they might as well be your children'.



My point exactly.
If wealthy children can also turn out to be terrible, then obviously there are far greater factors at work than just having financial means.

Stealing doesn't become okay just because you 'want' something you can't have. That is something all parents have a responsibility to teach their children. If they truly love and respect you, and you emphasize how important it is to do the right thing, then it is going to be a lot harder for them to steer off the wrong path... and if they do then it is your job as a parent to discipline them and set them straight. This is true whether you have a million dollars in your account or a hundred dollars. As a parent it is also your job to stress the importance of education and doing well in school. Learn who their friends are and make sure they are not hanging with the wrong crowd. These are obstacles sure, but they are just that... obstacles. They can be overcome.

Our actions in life are determined by our character, and no one has a greater influence in shaping a child's character than their own parents. I mean despite what people like @yeahbaby! and @Reaper would like to argue, if you were to pick any 14-15 year old gang member at random there is likely going to be a 99% chance that both of their parents either weren't around to begin with or they themselves live in dysfunction. No amount of 'research' they pull out of their ass undoes this indisputable fact.
Nobody is disputing there are other factors besides wealth. We are saying it is a big factor in raising children. You are seeing this as a ones and zeros issue when nobody is saying that. By this logic, if children of parents with good character turn out to be terrible, then obviously there are far greater factors at work than being good parents. Stupid logic.
 

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Just from this quote I can see you have no clue what is involved in parenting to think this is 'so close they might as well be your children'.
I was referring to my love for them and how much they mean to me. If god forbid something were to happen to their parents, I would be their caregiver. Of course my current responsibilities are nowhere near the same.


Nobody is disputing there are other factors besides wealth. We are saying it is a big factor in raising children. You are seeing this as a ones and zeros issue when nobody is saying that. By this logic, if children of parents with good character turn out to be terrible, then obviously there are far greater factors at work than being good parents. Stupid logic.
This is a far more rare occurrence though. More often than not the 'terrible people' don't come from those loving environments. And we can argue as to what makes someone a 'terrible person' until we are blue in the face, but I was mostly talking about gang members and violent criminals. I'm sure there are going to be some that slip through the cracks, but for the overwhelming majority of them it is very easy to predict how they were raised. When 90-99% of a given group have that same thing in common, it actually can be broken down into a simple argument. We have clearly identified the main culprit.

Yes wealth can be a factor in raising children, but it is not a factor in shaping their character.
 

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I was referring to my love for them and how much they mean to me. If god forbid something were to happen to their parents, I would be their caregiver. Of course my current responsibilities are nowhere near the same.
Parenting is a hell of a lot different than spoiling kids with your love. I am starting to question if you have even experience growing up as a normal kid. Did you not lie as a kid to get away with stuff before?



]This is a far more rare occurrence though. More often than not the 'terrible people' don't come from those loving environments. And we can argue as to what makes someone a 'terrible person' until we are blue in the face, but I was mostly talking about gang members and violent criminals. I'm sure there are going to be some that slip through the cracks, but for the overwhelming majority of them it is very easy to predict how they were raised. When 90-99% of a given group have that same thing in common, it actually can be broken down into a simple argument. We have clearly identified the main culprit.

Yes wealth can be a factor in raising children, but it is not a factor in shaping their character.
If you are poor and can only afford to live in a neighborhood or school with gang influence, wouldn't it raise the chances of your kid being recruited into one? Your 'love' and 'values' ain't going to stop every peer pressure and intimidation situations to join a gang your children encounter. It is the odds, not a yes/no situation you keep trying to fit the question into.

You can't define what makes someone terrible. So how can you define what 'values' to teach as a parent? You cite gang members have 90%-99% in common, but has no source besides your belief. While studies have shown many gang members admit that economic factor is a huge factor in why they initially joined gangs. We have someone who studied something relevant to the topic in this very thread telling you that but you just ignore it because it doesn't fit with your narrative.
 

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Parenting is a hell of a lot different than spoiling kids with your love. I am starting to question if you have even experience growing up as a normal kid. Did you not lie as a kid to get away with stuff before?
Of course I acted out, and when I got caught I was punished. That usually made me not wanna do it again.

If you are poor and can only afford to live in a neighborhood or school with gang influence, wouldn't it raise the chances of your kid being recruited into one? Your 'love' and 'values' ain't going to stop every peer pressure and intimidation situations to join a gang your children encounter. It is the odds, not a yes/no situation you keep trying to fit the question into.
Peer pressure? LOL

It's quite simple. If I find out you did something criminal and you live under my roof, you are going to get your ass whooped. And his mother would approve. Problem solved.

You can't define what makes someone terrible. So how can you define what 'values' to teach as a parent? You cite gang members have 90%-99% in common, but has no source besides your belief. While studies have shown many gang members admit that economic factor is a huge factor in why they initially joined gangs. We have someone who studied something relevant to the topic in this very thread telling you that but you just ignore it because it doesn't fit with your narrative.
You mean how do you keep your own child from becoming a criminal piece of shit who doesn't mug and steal? Is this a serious question?

And why would you bother to reference any study that draws it's conclusion by listening to what gang members 'admit' about themselves? How is that a reliable study? Can you show me what you are talking about?

"Oh well these gangsters said that they only joined a gang because of their economic disadvantages so it must be true".... do you not realize how ridiculous this sounds? Do you understand that in addition to being liars and criminals, a fair amount of convicted gang members are also retarded fucking halfwits with zero education and awareness?
 

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Of course I acted out, and when I got caught I was punished. That usually made me not wanna do it again.



Peer pressure? LOL

It's quite simple. If I find out you did something criminal and you live under my roof, you are going to get your ass whooped. And his mother would approve. Problem solved.



You mean how do you keep your own child from becoming a criminal piece of shit who doesn't mug and steal? Is this a serious question?

And why would you bother to reference any study that draws it's conclusion by listening to what gang members 'admit' about themselves? How is that a reliable study? Can you show me what you are talking about?

"Oh well these gangsters said that they only joined a gang because of their economic disadvantages so it must be true".... do you not realize how ridiculous this sounds? Do you understand that in addition to being liars and criminals, a fair amount of convicted gang members are also retarded fucking halfwits with zero education and awareness?
]OK, now I am seriously concerned that you did not have a normal childhood because these are not what normal people would say.

Did you parents whopped your ass out of joining a gang? Or did you not experience or see how peer pressure affects others?

Also why do you find it so difficult to understand economic reality is a big factor for many people joining gangs? When you are barely scrapping by, and someone constantly offers you the chance of instant gratification, that is a hellu difficult to turn it down every time. Someone like you that consume conservative media creating a safe space for you should know this.
 

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]OK, now I am seriously concerned that you did not have a normal childhood because these are not what normal people would say.

Did you parents whopped your ass out of joining a gang? Or did you not experience or see how peer pressure affects others?

Also why do you find it so difficult to understand economic reality is a big factor for many people joining gangs? When you are barely scrapping by, and someone constantly offers you the chance of instant gratification, that is a hellu difficult to turn it down every time. Someone like you that consume conservative media creating a safe space for you should know this.
Because that robs the person of agency and frames them in a way where they aren't responsible for their own choices. Joining a gang is making a choice. Doing wrong on other people is a choice. There are millions of lower income families out there that aren't producing gang members.

The reason why so many of these gang members and criminals are also poor... is because they are dumb. They didn't join gangs because they are poor, they join gang because they are dumb.

Dumb parents produce dumb kids.
 

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Because that robs the person of agency and frames them in a way where they aren't responsible for their own choices. Joining a gang is making a choice. Doing wrong on other people is a choice. There are millions of lower income families out there that aren't producing gang members.

The reason why so many of these gang members and criminals are also poor... is because they are dumb. They didn't join gangs because they are poor, they join gang because they are dumb.

Dumb parents produce dumb kids.
Being poor do rob the person of some agency to an extent. You think your solution of whopping the bad influences from peer pressure out off your kid is going to be as effective if you are barely scrapping by?

So in your mind they are dumb AND poor. Maybe not being poor could prevent these same dumb people from joining gangs?
 

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Being poor do rob the person of some agency to an extent. You think your solution of whopping the bad influences from peer pressure out off your kid is going to be as effective if you are barely scrapping by?

So in your mind they are dumb AND poor. Maybe not being poor could prevent these same dumb people from joining gangs?
If being poor robs a person of their agency then what would you say to the 70 million people out there who earn less than the median income and don't resort to crime?

How are they different? What makes them so special? It can't possibly have anything to do with the home environment right?
 

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If being poor robs a person of their agency then what would you say to the 70 million people out there who earn less than the median income and don't resort to crime?

How are they different? What makes them so special? It can't possibly have anything to do with the home environment right?
Some agency...to an extent...so they are more at risk of making bad decisions when facing certain situations...similar to having a bad home environment make people more at risk of making bad decisions...
 

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Some agency...to an extent...so they are more at risk of making bad decisions when facing certain situations...similar to having a bad home environment make people more at risk of making bad decisions...
Okay...?

There are 70 million people earning below the median income. The overwhelming majority of them do not make those same 'bad decisions' that lead them down a life of crime.

What is your theory? What do you think is the key factor that separates them from the ones that become gang members?

I mean you know what my theory is, but I would like to hear yours.
 

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Okay...?

There are 70 million people earning below the median income. The overwhelming majority of them do not make those same 'bad decisions' that lead them down a life of crime.

What is your theory? What do you think is the key factor that separates them from the ones that become gang members?

I mean you know what my theory is, but I would like to hear yours.
Gangs don't recruit everyone. Many of those that choose not to join become victims of gang activities.
 

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Gangs don't recruit everyone. Many of those that choose not to join become victims of gang activities.
You mean they choose not to join gangs? What? I thought they weren't in control of their decisions because of their impoverished environment? What gives?
 

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You mean they choose not to join gangs? What? I thought they weren't in control of their decisions because of their impoverished environment? What gives?
Yeah and the choice is between either joining when recruited or suffer even more. Not everyone has as a high tolerance of hardship as you. Again, I stated agency to an extent not total lack of agency. If you want to continue this discussion please stop this.
 

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Yeah and the choice is between either joining when recruited or suffer even more. Not everyone has as a high tolerance of hardship as you. Again, I stated agency to an extent not total lack of agency. If you want to continue this discussion please stop this.
Ok fine economic standing can have an effect on one's agency "to an extent", but clearly it's not the most profound influence otherwise we would have way more gangsters and criminals flooding the world. Most low income earners lead honest lives and do not commit crimes. They have character and they have values.

When it comes to shaping and molding a child's character, when it comes to teaching them certain values... I just don't see how anyone can argue that (insert reason here) is a bigger factor than the manner in which that child was raised.
 

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Ok fine economic standing can have an effect on one's agency "to an extent", but clearly it's not the most profound influence otherwise we would have way more gangsters and criminals flooding the world. Most low income earners lead honest lives and do not commit crimes. They have character and they have values.

When it comes to shaping and molding a child's character, when it comes to teaching them certain values... I just don't see how anyone can argue that (insert reason here) is a bigger factor than the manner in which that child was raised.
I said before, gangs can't recruit everybody, they have limits to how many non-victim members it can support. Similar to how any organisations don't recruit anyone they can. You need to pay people to help your organisation.

Also, nobody is saying how the child is raised isn't is an important factor in why some people join gangs. You are the one saying it is the ONLY point that matters. We are saying that is too simplistic a view on why people join gangs. If after all this back and forth you still don't get it, then you will never get it.
 

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I think the most interesting debate, least one of them will always be about origin. Where did it all begin.
 

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I said before, gangs can't recruit everybody, they have limits to how many non-victim members it can support. Similar to how any organisations don't recruit anyone they can. You need to pay people to help your organisation.

Also, nobody is saying how the child is raised isn't is an important factor in why some people join gangs. You are the one saying it is the ONLY point that matters. We are saying that is too simplistic a view on why people join gangs. If after all this back and forth you still don't get it, then you will never get it.
I think that sums up Mr Devito, my advice is to give up trying to educate someone that apparently knows everything about parenting who isn't one; and also someone who has no apparent background or done a shred of research in a topic but knows everything about it.

I think for some people their egos simply won't allow opening their mind to different possibilities or taking in other perspectives. To them it means they might've been wrong and they're never wrong.
 
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