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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

Anthem started to work with Jarrett because they thought he could get them back on Spike, he couldn't. They're still on Pop last I heard.
Nah I'm in Columbus and I don't think I have pop tv

Nope you're right hmm apparently I got pop.
 

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Greek God of Knowledge
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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

There are no excuses. However, you asked why should Reigns be the top star if ratings and attendance is declining, and I proved that there's no alternative that would do better than Reigns since they also declined under your indy darlings and Lesnar. They can't even sell more t-shirts than Reigns, let alone tickets.
Bullshit. No one currently in WWE who is full time, have it be Owens, Rollins or anyone else for that matter, has gotten the opportunities Reigns has gotten. Saying ratings declined under other wrestlers is a terrible argument, and you know it. Of course, you're going to ignore my argument and I know you're just gonna neg me. It's fine with me, because I could care less. But I enjoy letting others see me call you out on your bullshit.
 

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Baby Yoda
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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

Bullshit. No one currently in WWE who is full time, have it be Owens, Rollins or anyone else for that matter, has gotten the opportunities Reigns has gotten. Saying ratings declined under other wrestlers is a terrible argument, and you know it. Of course, you're going to ignore my argument and I know you're just gonna neg me. It's fine with me, because I could care less. But I enjoy letting others see me call you out on your bullshit.
Torch, Taker's career, 1 Royal Rumble, 4 WM main events and Lesnar rub.

No one from the new generation has anything that could compare to any of that.
 

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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

Because anybody that actually watched TNA knows that AJ Styles and the X division was the actual draw of that fucking show. Who the fuck cared about Jeff Jarrett when he was being a shit copy of HHH with a guitar and legitimate control in the company. But folk did care about the X division. People talk about Styles vs Joe vs Daniels in Ultimate X matches when they think great TNA moments. When you think TNA you think AJ Styles regardless of if he was champ or getting the mega push at the moment. He was the first triple crown champ for fucks sake

And they are back on Spike
AJ didn't "fail" as face of the company per se. They just phased him out over time as they put more and more focus on ex WWE stars. When people think early TNA, the genuine alternative product to WWE, they think AJ Styles. They started declining when they went overboard with using ex WWE talebt, and phasing out and mishandling home grown talent. Samoa Joe also suffered a similar fate. He didn't "fail" as face. The company failed him.
 

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Baby Yoda
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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

AJ didn't "fail" as face of the company per se. They just phased him out over time as they put more and more focus on ex WWE stars. When people think early TNA, the genuine alternative product to WWE, they think AJ Styles. They started declining when they went overboard with using ex WWE talebt, and phasing out and mishandling home grown talent. Samoa Joe also suffered a similar fate. He didn't "fail" as face. The company failed him.
Just to reflect this, the WWE offered him a bare minimum 60k NXT contract after he left TNA.

Two years later after working in NJPW and ROH they offered him 600k, he ended up making 2.2m in his first year :lol
 

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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

Just to reflect this, the WWE offered him a bare minimum 60k NXT contract after he left TNA.

Two years later after working in NJPW and ROH they offered him 600k, he ended up making 2.2m in his first year
But why did he leave TNA, because they decided he wasn't worth it. He was so great they let him go over money. He didn't leave for a challenge. He left because they were like "eh we don't think you're worth it" they company that made him a big deal told him that

AJ didn't "fail" as face of the company per se. They just phased him out over time as they put more and more focus on ex WWE stars. When people think early TNA, the genuine alternative product to WWE, they think AJ Styles. They started declining when they went overboard with using ex WWE talebt, and phasing out and mishandling home grown talent. Samoa Joe also suffered a similar fate. He didn't "fail" as face. The company failed him.
Soo WWE haven't failed Reigns in his booking then? Why is it that it's never a guy like AJ's fault for anything?



Bullshit. No one currently in WWE who is full time, have it be Owens, Rollins or anyone else for that matter, has gotten the opportunities Reigns has gotten. Saying ratings declined under other wrestlers is a terrible argument, and you know it. Of course, you're going to ignore my argument and I know you're just gonna neg me. It's fine with me, because I could care less. But I enjoy letting others see me call you out on your bullshit.
So why even give these guys titles and moments if they aren't going to be responsible for ratings? I mean it's not like Rollins didn't spend over a year next to HHH a known guy, won MitB, walked out of the Mania as champ, and held the title for months. He doesn't have to draw fuck out of here. Y'all just want to make excuses for why the guys who should supposedly take the reigns from Reigns since he's not draw, aren't draws themselves. None of them are draws. If fans really just wanted other folk why didn't more people tune in when Rollins and Owens were champs? I mean Reigns wasn't champ, what was the excuse for not watching
 

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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

But why did he leave TNA, because they decided he wasn't worth it. He was so great they let him go over money. He didn't leave for a challenge. He left because they were like "eh we don't think you're worth it" they company that made him a big deal told him that



Soo WWE haven't failed Reigns in his booking then? Why is it that it's never a guy like AJ's fault for anything?
WWE have failed Reigns in their booking as well. But regardless, I still don't think Reigns is talented enough to lead the company. I think the man's talented, just don't think he should be FOTC.

Although as to why AJ isn't blamed as much.....

1-TNA screwed up a lot. They made a lot of horrible decisions that screwed over s lot of their talent and themselves. They once had Kazuchika Okada working for them and they decided the best way to use him was to dress him as Okato, a parody of the charater Kato in The Green Hornet. New Japan got so mad, that they broke of their relationship with TNA due to this. And this is just one of the many horrible decisions they did. A lot of the time, its just lol TNA screwing up instead of the talent. That's why AJ and a lot of other TNA talent don't get as much blame as the whole company did. Its worth noting that AJ did succeed as the gaijin face in New Japan after.

2-The fans never turned on AJ like they did with Roman. No matter how misused AJ was, the fans always respected him and his abillity. Its a testament to his abillity that he has managed to retain the respect of fans despite TNA's booking of him. The same is not true of Roman however. Most people dislike both him and his booking. Although I do agree a lot of the hate is excessive and sometimes delusional, again I just don't think he should be FOTC guy. I'd like Roman a lot more if they booked him to his strengths and less superman booking but I could say that about a lot of guys.
 

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Baby Yoda
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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

But why did he leave TNA, because they decided he wasn't worth it. He was so great they let him go over money. He didn't leave for a challenge. He left because they were like "eh we don't think you're worth it" they company that made him a big deal told him that



Soo WWE haven't failed Reigns in his booking then? Why is it that it's never a guy like AJ's fault for anything?





So why even give these guys titles and moments if they aren't going to be responsible for ratings? I mean it's not like Rollins didn't spend over a year next to HHH a known guy, won MitB, walked out of the Mania as champ, and held the title for months. He doesn't have to draw fuck out of here. Y'all just want to make excuses for why the guys who should supposedly take the reigns from Reigns since he's not draw, aren't draws themselves. None of them are draws. If fans really just wanted other folk why didn't more people tune in when Rollins and Owens were champs? I mean Reigns wasn't champ, what was the excuse for not watching
TNA had Okada and The Young Bucks, just watch how they used them to realize how lucky AJ was to come out with a shred of credibility and star power.

If no on is drawing, why the fuck is Roman getting all the accolades? Why not let someone else main event a WM and see what they can do with it. Because it seriously feels like they're giving Roman absolutely everything for absolute squat in return. Retiring Taker, winning the Rumble, main eventing WM and getting the torch from Cena should be huge, but it's not because it's given to Roman who is not organically over and is hated by the majority of fans.
 

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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

WWE have failed Reigns in their booking as well. But regardless, I still don't think Reigns is talented enough to lead the company. I think the man's talented, just don't think he should be FOTC.

Although as to why AJ isn't blamed as much.....

1-TNA screwed up a lot. They made a lot of horrible decisions that screwed over s lot of their talent and themselves. They once had Kazuchika Okada working for them and they decided the best way to use him was to dress him as Okato, a parody of the charater Kato in The Green Hornet. New Japan got so mad, that they broke of their relationship with TNA due to this. And this is just one of the many horrible decisions they did. A lot of the time, its just lol TNA screwing up instead of the talent. That's why AJ and a lot of other TNA talent don't get as much blame as the whole company did. Its worth noting that AJ did succeed as the gaijin face in New Japan after.

2-The fans never turned on AJ like they did with Roman. No matter how misused AJ was, the fans always respected him and his abillity. Its a testament to his abillity that he has managed to retain the respect of fans despite TNA's booking of him. The same is not true of Roman however. Most people dislike both him and his booking. Although I do agree a lot of the hate is excessive and sometimes delusional, again I just don't think he should be FOTC guy. I'd like Roman a lot more if they booked him to his strengths and less superman booking but I could say that about a lot of guys.
1. This board mostly feels the same way about WWE? But Reigns still gets held accountable for his clear failures to turn the ship around or even doing a decent job of it not nose diving at the moment. Why aren't other people held accountable for their failures as well

2. But that's not really saying much fans loved him so much he didn't bring new ones in and the company slowly got less and less popular as he was there. I mean Reigns not being looked and being perceived to be on an endless push makes sense for departure. AJ being beloved and fans still leaving makes little sense. It's not like he was a jobber.

I'm not saying don't hold Reigns accountable. I'm just saying folk should be consistent. If you can find reasons why everyone else isn't at fault, then certainly there's a plethora no of reasons why Reigns isn't, starting with booking him in ways that builds resentment

TNA had Okada and The Young Bucks, just watch how they used them to realize how lucky AJ was to come out with a shred of credibility and star power.

If no on is drawing, why the fuck is Roman getting all the accolades? Why not let someone else main event a WM and see what they can do with it. Because it seriously feels like they're giving Roman absolutely everything for absolute squat in return. Retiring Taker, winning the Rumble, main eventing WM and getting the torch from Cena should be huge, but it's not because it's given to Roman who is not organically over and is hated by the majority of fans.
Again you blame all the issues on TNA, well WWE has real issues too, so why isn't Reigns getting somewhat of a pass as well. You could easily argue the way he's booked in that he has consistently got big moments come Mania time has done him no favors. Most would agree 3 Mania main events is too much and a possible 4th is ridiculous (as a fan I'll take it, but I get the annoyance). So why isn't he absolved he can't help his booking that gets his resentment or WWE's long standing inability to create a new crossover face.

As far as somebody else getting a chance, idk I'm not Vince. But I'm sure ignoring your favorites when they are champ in favor of worrying about Reigns and what he'll be doing months later isn't helping. I'm pretty sure not directing the boos they clearly ignore in favor of "but it's a reaction" towards somebody else isn't helping. Somebody was talking about insanity is doing the same thing, but expecting a different result. Well after over a decade of them spinning Cena hate, you'd think fans would be smarter and not waste their energy. After seeing Bryan and believing they got him that spot, you'd think fans would do that more.
 

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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

I also think people are overstating the popularity of wrestling outside it's hardcore fanbase. Reigns or whoever you wanna hit as the face of the company can't be a face to the mainstream if the mainstream do not care about your product because it's not the in thing. Wresting in general needs a complete overhaul for any of these guys to be an effective "face of the company".

One man cannot carry your company. Conor McGregor would be half as effective if the UFC had him on every one of their shows. You have to spread the load and when you only have one guy that happens to be somewhere at the top, you have to start pointing your finger at how someone in marketing hasn't managed to find something people can latch on to. It's as if WWE doesn't do enough market research to find out what people would watch if they don't watch pro wrestling.
 

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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

This reminds me of how people were bitching about ratings when CM Punk was Champion which were exponentially better than today. They focus on a lowly rated Holiday episode at the end of 2012 in which Punk did not perform as he was recovering from surgery. They even bitched about PPV buys. The icing on the cake was Summerslam 2013 when Daniel Bryan and CM Punk were blamed for lesser PPV buys are opposed to the previous year. Even though John Cena may not have been WWE Champion at the time he was FOTC (even if Punk outsold him -> something Roman never could even come close to doing). If Cena was FOTC then Roman is FOOTMFC now because they are booking Roman stronger than Cena.
 

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Greek God of Knowledge
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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

So why even give these guys titles and moments if they aren't going to be responsible for ratings? I mean it's not like Rollins didn't spend over a year next to HHH a known guy, won MitB, walked out of the Mania as champ, and held the title for months. He doesn't have to draw fuck out of here. Y'all just want to make excuses for why the guys who should supposedly take the reigns from Reigns since he's not draw, aren't draws themselves. None of them are draws. If fans really just wanted other folk why didn't more people tune in when Rollins and Owens were champs? I mean Reigns wasn't champ, what was the excuse for not watching
So you're saying it's completely valid to compare a guy who has spent his entire run as a face, made to look strong, beat out everyone he went up against, including the biggest legends they have to offer, to a guy who spent his entire run as champion as a heel, was booked terribly, and was made to look inferior? I'm not making excuses. It's called using logic. If you're gonna compare two people and try to say one is a more capable draw, you'd better have the proof to back it up. It's a well known fact that a heel isn't supposed to be the drawing card of Pro Wrestling, it's the face. If you're going to tell me that Reigns is meant to be FOTC over a particular person who never even got the chance to have a main event push as a face, then I'm not going to take that claim seriously because you have nothing to go on at the moment. You can't tell me Owens or Rollins aren't as capable of being draws as Reigns is when all they've done that's noteworthy so far in their main roster runs is play the heel role. History dictates that they won't be draws.

At least in the case of John Cena when he first started out as FOTC, you could certainly argue that he was best fit because of the ratings he was bringing in. Reigns on the other hand hasn't produced positive results as far as ratings are concerned. So, to me, it makes no logical sense to claim Reigns is the best fit when he hasn't produced positive results and he has been the only one given this kind of push. At least in Cena's case he had Batista to compare to.
 

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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

It's not news that Reigns has failed as face of the company/top cantidate. The WWE is as unpopular as ever with him at the top. It'll continue dwindling like this and eventually PPV's will be half filled most of the time.
 

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I try not to care about who draws or attendance figures anymore. I think the only time I would now is if the company is legitimately in a position that it would be taken off TV or have to undergo mass talent layoffs.

But from what I know, this isn't the case.

The product is poor at times, but if I just focus on what I like then I still enjoy it. Too many people worry about what everyone else is in to rather than enjoying their favourites.
 

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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

So you're saying it's completely valid to compare a guy who has spent his entire run as a face, made to look strong, beat out everyone he went up against, including the biggest legends they have to offer, to a guy who spent his entire run as champion as a heel, was booked terribly, and was made to look inferior? I'm not making excuses. It's called using logic. If you're gonna compare two people and try to say one is a more capable draw, you'd better have the proof to back it up. It's a well known fact that a heel isn't supposed to be the drawing card of Pro Wrestling, it's the face. If you're going to tell me that Reigns is meant to be FOTC over a particular person who never even got the chance to have a main event push as a face, then I'm not going to take that claim seriously because you have nothing to go on at the moment. You can't tell me Owens or Rollins aren't as capable of being draws as Reigns is when all they've done that's noteworthy so far in their main roster runs is play the heel role. History dictates that they won't be draws.

At least in the case of John Cena when he first started out as FOTC, you could certainly argue that he was best fit because of the ratings he was bringing in. Reigns on the other hand hasn't produced positive results as far as ratings are concerned. So, to me, it makes no logical sense to claim Reigns is the best fit when he hasn't produced positive results and he has been the only one given this kind of push. At least in Cena's case he had Batista to compare to.
So when Ric Flair was killing shit was he not the draw. Do people not blame HHH for not drawing during the reign of terror? Did people not blame Jeff Jarrett for the same thing when he was smashing guitars every week? Do people not blame Jinder for SmackDown's current woes? Are the nWo not credited with drawing big for WCW? Do People not consider the Bullet Club a big draw outside of WWE? Heels can draw, they draw by getting fans see them get their ass kicked. The idea that a heel champ isn't supposed to bring fan in the arena is bull shit

Like I said it's always an excuse or coddling. I mean people will go "well you can't blame Owens for not drawing he's a heel and hasn't got as much as Reigns" yet on SDL people are all smug with "look at Jinder not drawing" I mean he's a heel why is he expected to draw? I mean sure he's the champ, but clearly AJ and Owens are more important than him, they've got more in their career. It shouldn't be his responsibility to draw even if he's a heel champ according to your logic right.
 

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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

The WWE going down the toilet is not Romans fault. Don't get me wrong, he's fucking trash in his role, but it's not him who decided to put him that position. A competent evaluater of talent would of seen that Reigns ceiling was likely that of a Test or a Psycho Sid and booked him accordingly.
 

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Re: Raw draws poor attendance for major market show

TNA had Okada and The Young Bucks, just watch how they used them to realize how lucky AJ was to come out with a shred of credibility and star power.

If no on is drawing, why the fuck is Roman getting all the accolades? Why not let someone else main event a WM and see what they can do with it. Because it seriously feels like they're giving Roman absolutely everything for absolute squat in return. Retiring Taker, winning the Rumble, main eventing WM and getting the torch from Cena should be huge, but it's not because it's given to Roman who is not organically over and is hated by the majority of fans.
The Cena VS Reigns torch passing match was the most random thing I have ever seen. It was neither the time, nor the place, nor the right people. In fact, I would go as far and say when it comes to important storylines, that was the most cringy, forced, unorganic thing I have ever seen.
 
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