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Blame lies on Cena for not protecting it and getting cheap pops for kick outs. It means less and less, you're buried nowadays if you don't kick out of one.
i agree but that unfortunately means hes going to kick out of one of yours as well, just how it is nowadays
doesn't help that people complain when a finishers protected as well (reigns, ambrose)
 

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I keep reading about how basic Roman or Cena´s move-set are but really, does it really matter? on the other hand we have guys like TJ Perkins one of the very best, this guy can do some things almost nobody can, he is a high flyer ,a submission master and an spectacular wrestler yet nobody gives a damn about him, the same thing happened to Neville , another top talent and one if not the very best in the word and for years he got crickets.
Understand once and for all is not about a move set, its about what can a wrestler do with those moves and in ring psychology, im not saying you have to be a bad or terrible wrestler but its all about the booking and not the moves.
one question has tj perkins a character? he is in 205 the most boring show these days.
he can have lots of moves but unless he has no character i will not care.

its important to have lots of moves hell look at 2005s Cena and the Cena today. Guy improved and has tons of moves (even when some of them look garbage) and since 2015 he is on fire when it comes to have great matches.

Yes it is important to have lots of moves but first you need character/gimmick/mic skills... without them it doesnt matter how many moves you have.
 

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I keep reading about how basic Roman or Cena´s move-set are but really, does it really matter? on the other hand we have guys like TJ Perkins one of the very best, this guy can do some things almost nobody can, he is a high flyer ,a submission master and an spectacular wrestler yet nobody gives a damn about him, the same thing happened to Neville , another top talent and one if not the very best in the word and for years he got crickets.
Understand once and for all is not about a move set, its about what can a wrestler do with those moves and in ring psychology, im not saying you have to be a bad or terrible wrestler but its all about the booking and not the moves.
This was something I realized recently too, it actually falls very closely in line with a point made during the Pinkett reviews of Star Wars (although I can't be arsed to look up the segment).

The segment was about how prequel trilogy light-saber fights were boring in spite of being heavily choreographed and very flashy, as opposed to something like Empire Strikes Back, which has very simple choreography, but lots of subtle interactions between the characters.

TJP doesn't really manifest that kind of character in his performances, he's all skill. But for example, Shane and Taker last year wasn't a great fight because Shane jumped off HiaC, it was a great fight because of the styles they used, and the ending with Shane gesturing "Come at me", and Undertaker affectionately patting his cheek before delivering the Tombstone. That's a million times more compelling than "Fight fight fight finisher kickout fight fight stunt bump pop fight fight finisher finisher pin done"
 

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Number of moves matters as long as there's variety. If someone always does a wide variety of moves, we'll stop caring about the moves as we see them again and again, like Orton's rope DDT. If someone always does the same moves, we'll pop when they do a new one, like Reign's doing his first crucifix powerbomb. Moves are just a way of providing either what we expect, and thereby making it harder to care, or what we don't expect, and thereby entertaining us.

For me, the biggest example of how this works and how it fails are Goldberg's last two matches. Although disappointing from a work-rate standpoint, Goldberg's short match with Lesnar was still amusing for some of us because we didn't expect the squash at all. What it lacked in story and moves it instead had in sheer surprise. When Goldberg beat KO the same way, however, we knew who was winning and we knew they might book the match in a way to protect Goldberg's health for (hopefully) an actual match at Wrestlemania. In the second match, they didn't defy our expectations and we hated it for it.

It's not about number of moves so much as it's about fan expectations. The better we can predict what moves will be used and what they will result in, the less we care. When we're surprised, like we were when Reigns first did the crucifix powerbomb or Bryan first did his flying knee, we eat it up.
 

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Main eventers should have more than 5 moves in order to keep fresh standing week after week in front of all the people. Spamming superman makes a wrestler boring.

I notice that they have to protect themselves and save some stuff for ppvs but some matches are so predictable.
 

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When Goldberg beat KO the same we, however, we knew who was winning and we knew they might book the match in a way to protect Goldberg's health for (hopefully) an actual match at Wrestlemania. In the second match, they didn't defy our expectations and we hated it for it.
Yeah, but Goldburg was basically a prop in that match. Sure, he got thrown a title, but the actual story of that match was some good buildup work by nervous Owens, and Suddenly: Jericho.
 

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Maybe this is a question to be answered with a more systematic approach. For me personally here is the basic list of what I want to see from a performer.

1. Mic work - Can they draw and keep my attention during a promo? Do they make me hit the mute button?
2. Character - Do they have one? Is it interesting? Do they have a goal?
3. Ring Capability - At the very least, can they work a match without injuring themselves or others? At their best can they "steal the crowd"?
Can they sell appropriately? Do they do so if they can?
4. Entrance - Does it grab my attention? Does the music make me hit mute or volume up?
5. Gear - Does it fit the character? At the very least, does it look appropriate to a ring?
6. Moves - At the very least, can they rotate them up once in a while?

These are the basics I look for, there is other minute that can be looked at of course, but if these 5 can be passed it's enough of a start I won't say I wish them gone without extenuating circumstances.
 

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Yeah, but Goldburg was basically a prop in that match. Sure, he got thrown a title, but the actual story of that match was some good buildup work by nervous Owens, and Suddenly: Jericho.
They didn't tell a story. They only started to tell a story. They should've had KO actually start to gain an edge on Goldberg through running away, tiring him out, and using other cowardly tactics. Then as KO starts realizing his strategy is working, he could have started taunting the crowding. In the middle of his taunting, Jericho's music plays, distracting KO, and then Goldberg destroys him to win the belt. We get the same finish but with the shock of delivering it right after making a case for how KO could win an uninterrupted match.

In doing so, they spare us from hating the match for lasting mere minutes with two moves being done. Goldberg would take 1-2 minor bumps, like a clotheline and a diving knee strike, and have minimal risk of getting hurt. KO would look a little stronger than he did. Lastly, they would foreshadow how Lesnar eventually beats Goldberg at Wrestlemania. Lesnar would win by using the same cowardly tactics KO did.

In this situation, the story they start to tell at Fastlane is the story of how Lesnar beats a superior Goldberg at Mania. In addition to starting to a tell a story, they could also actually tell a story with the match. This story would be about how KO is still a threat to win even when he's physically over-matched - something his character needs to stay interesting when feuding with guys like Lesnar, Strowman, Reigns, and Cena. They could've started a bigger story while providing us with more than an extremely abrupt ending to a match all too similar to what we just saw between Goldberg and Lesnar. The brief KO and Goldberg feud lacked an interesting pay off. With a few minor adjustments, however, it might have had a chance at something.
 

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They didn't tell a story. They only started to tell a story. They should've had KO actually start to gain an edge on Goldberg through running away, tiring him out, and using other cowardly tactics. Then as KO starts realizing his strategy is working, he could have started taunting the crowding. In the middle of his taunting, Jericho's music plays, distracting KO, and then Goldberg destroys him to win the belt.

They spare us from hating the match for lasting mere minutes with two moves being done. Goldberg would take 1-2 minor bumps, like a clotheline and a diving knee strike, and have minimal risk of getting hurt. KO would look a little stronger than he did. Lastly, they would foreshadow how Lesnar eventually beats Goldberg at Wrestlemania. Lesnar would win by using the same cowardly tactics KO did.

In this situation, the story they start to tell at Fastlane is the story of how Lesnar beats a superior Goldberg at Mania. In addition to starting to a tell a story, they could also actually tell a story with the match. This story would be about how KO is still a threat to win even when he's physically over-matched - something his character needs to stay interesting when feuding with guys like Lesnar, Strowman, Reigns, and Cena. They could've started a bigger story while providing us with more than a predictable, abrupt ending to the match.
I hear you, but deciding not to do that wasn't poor judgement, it was based on Goldburg's physical inability to perform for any length of time. The dude exemplifies a paper champion; his entire workout is based on restoring his old look with zero time spent on cardio (which would let him do more than three moves without an oxygen mask).
His entire comeback run has been based on the ILLUSION that he's somehow aged like wine and become so powerful he can flick Lesnar aside like Brock's a child.
 

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I keep reading about how basic Roman or Cena´s move-set are but really, does it really matter? on the other hand we have guys like TJ Perkins one of the very best, this guy can do some things almost nobody can, he is a high flyer ,a submission master and an spectacular wrestler yet nobody gives a damn about him, the same thing happened to Neville , another top talent and one if not the very best in the word and for years he got crickets.
Understand once and for all is not about a move set, its about what can a wrestler do with those moves and in ring psychology, im not saying you have to be a bad or terrible wrestler but its all about the booking and not the moves.
And how does all this exactly help Roman Reigns and John Cena's case? What exactly DOES Roman Reigns do with the moves he has? When's the last time you watched a Reigns match and thought "damn, that Reigns guy, he doesn't have a lot of moves, but he sure can tell a story". And selling and psychology? Gimme a break. You have two guys here who are frequently booked a supermen, taking everything and just getting back up.
 

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I keep reading about how basic Roman or Cena´s move-set are but really, does it really matter? on the other hand we have guys like TJ Perkins one of the very best, this guy can do some things almost nobody can, he is a high flyer ,a submission master and an spectacular wrestler yet nobody gives a damn about him, the same thing happened to Neville , another top talent and one if not the very best in the word and for years he got crickets.
Understand once and for all is not about a move set, its about what can a wrestler do with those moves and in ring psychology, im not saying you have to be a bad or terrible wrestler but its all about the booking and not the moves.


Having a large move set never got someone over. All you need is a couple of moves that people get behind and that's it. Hogan, Warrior and Goldberg prove this to be the case.

If move sets really mattered then Dean Malenko would have been one of the biggest wrestling superstars ever.

Cena and Roman's weak move set isn't why people dislike them.
 

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And how does all this exactly help Roman Reigns and John Cena's case? What exactly DOES Roman Reigns do with the moves he has? When's the last time you watched a Reigns match and thought "damn, that Reigns guy, he doesn't have a lot of moves, but he sure can tell a story". And selling and psychology? Gimme a break. You have two guys here who are frequently booked a supermen, taking everything and just getting back up.
dont you think roman had a pretty good match with strowman at fast lane considering how green strowman is
 

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Having a large move set never got someone over. All you need is a couple of moves that people get behind and that's it. Hogan, Warrior and Goldberg prove this to be the case.

If move sets really mattered then Dean Malenko would have been one of the biggest wrestling superstars ever.

Cena and Roman's weak move set isn't why people dislike them.
Exactly.

The problem is, Roman does not have that. It's not that his moveset is small that's the main problem, it's just not exciting. The only move he has that you could say is kinda over with the crowd is the 10 clotheslines in the corner, and that's only because the crowd likes to count along.

dont you think roman had a pretty good match with strowman at fast lane considering how green strowman is
I thought it was a solid match. Reigns isn't a bad worker, but he's not a guy who can deliver a 4+ star match unless he's working with a fanstastic wrestler like AJ Styles, Daniel Bryan or Seth Rollins. He's good when it comes to "smoke-and-mirrors" matches such as Last Man Standing or TLC, because there's a lot of brawling involved and spots with tables and weapons and whatnot.
 

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Exactly.

The problem is, Roman does not have that. It's not that his moveset is small that's the main problem, it's just not exciting. The only move he has that you could say is kinda over with the crowd is the 10 clotheslines in the corner, and that's only because the crowd likes to count along.



I thought it was a solid match. Reigns isn't a bad worker, but he's not a guy who can deliver a 4+ star match unless he's working with a fanstastic wrestler like AJ Styles, Daniel Bryan or Seth Rollins. He's good when it comes to "smoke-and-mirrors" matches such as Last Man Standing or TLC, because there's a lot of brawling involved and spots with tables and weapons and whatnot.
suppose im just a fan of his mixed brawling and power offence, although i do think when he fully turns heel he should incorporate some more power moves
 

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suppose im just a fan of his mixed brawling and power offence, although i do think when he fully turns heel he should incorporate some more power moves
I'm not criticizing it, but he very rarely actually does such No DQ matches. 90% of his offense consists of punches, and it can get boring. Why not, instead of punching the guy a couple of times then doing that running jumping clothesline, you do a vertical suplex? Or a neckbreaker variation? Or a dropkick? Or a DDT? Yeah, those are all mundane moves. But he's supposed to be the powerhouse, for God's sake. Where are all the power moves? Every once in a while he'll hit a sitout powerbomb, and that's it. Nothing else.
 

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I'm not criticizing it, but he very rarely actually does such No DQ matches. 90% of his offense consists of punches, and it can get boring. Why not, instead of punching the guy a couple of times then doing that running jumping clothesline, you do a vertical suplex? Or a neckbreaker variation? Or a dropkick? Or a DDT? Yeah, those are all mundane moves. But he's supposed to be the powerhouse, for God's sake. Where are all the power moves? Every once in a while he'll hit a sitout powerbomb, and that's it. Nothing else.
if i got to chose id have him do a sort of jackhammer but drop into a backbreaker
a pretty normal spinebuster

let him leave a few big spots for ppv matches just add those 2 and id be very happy
 

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if i got to chose id have him do a sort of jackhammer but drop into a backbreaker
a pretty normal spinebuster

let him leave a few big spots for ppv matches just add those 2 and id be very happy
Yeah, just add a few more basic moves to his arsenal so his Raw matches aren't all punches and kicks. Then on PPV, break out the big guns, such as the over the top rope suicide dive.

Take a look at this neckbreaker, for example


It's a pretty cool looking combination. Three kicks, ending with a swinging neckbreaker. So why doesn't he adopt this and use it regularly?


Or something like this? He breaks out a move or two like this every once in a while like it's a highspot. Moveset isn't the most important thing by a longshot, but Reigns' does need some expanding because it's far more basic than it should be at this level. He isn't Stone Cold or The Rock, those guys could compensate their lack of moves with other abilities, but Reigns can't.
 
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