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That's great, so you of all people should know better than to believe in free money.

Americans as a whole already donate 300 billion - 400 billion dollars every year in charitable donations. If even a quarter of that went into the hands of the people it's supposed to, that's 100 billion. So in the last 10 years that would mean we have donated 1 trillion dollars to charity.

And that's ON TOP of the 2-3 trillion dollars the government collects in tax revenue every year.

And yet in spite of all that we still have the sick, the homeless, the addiction, the underprivileged, the crime, the suffering, etc... all of the problems this money was supposed to make disappear. What happened? Were we just a few too trillion short of our goal? Or more realistically are these just human being problems that money is never going to solve?
Just manage resources matter.

There are many apartments and condos sitting unoccupied in major cities, even in Canada. Why not house some of the homeless in them?

Once you separate the impoverished from those that treat being homeless as a lifestyle (and yes, those people do exist), its a matter of housing them while they get themselves back on their feet while they look for a job for financial stability (including the work attire to look the part), get clean from addictions, and learn to manage money better while building their savings up.

Victimless crimes should not result in jail time. Some of them, i.e. drug use, should be approached as a health issue instead if they are addicts

The underprivileged...free college and, much more importantly, debt forgiveness. Once the burden of debt is removed, it is easier to focus on contributing to society.

The sick...Medicare 4 All and pharmacare for all for medications. Even Trump has been in support on universal healthcare (which is cheaper in the long run, and thus should be favoured by conservatives instead of opposed) and he had a decent idea in removing state lines in regards to insurance to create competition back in 2016. Capitalism has its limits here when it comes to healthcare.

I get that you want to have capitalist solutions to long standing problems. Even climate change has those that want to solve the issue by using capitalism. But certain problems, like the sick and the homeless, do require socialism to fix them. It’s for the sake of creating fairness in terms of access.
 

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Inflation of necessary goods should be a crime. Salaries not only don't get raised, and with automation in the horizon, plenty of people will be out of a job because they are considered "obsolete" by their money-hoarding bosses. UBI will never come to reality because the wealthy always put up a fight. This means a massive rise in poverty, and mass privatization of land, crops, and even law enforcement.

Welcome to OCP-owned Detroit.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
Just manage resources matter.

There are many apartments and condos sitting unoccupied in major cities, even in Canada. Why not house some of the homeless in them?

Once you separate the impoverished from those that treat being homeless as a lifestyle (and yes, those people do exist), its a matter of housing them while they get themselves back on their feet while they look for a job for financial stability (including the work attire to look the part), get clean from addictions, and learn to manage money better while building their savings up.

Victimless crimes should not result in jail time. Some of them, i.e. drug use, should be approached as a health issue instead if they are addicts

The underprivileged...free college and, much more importantly, debt forgiveness. Once the burden of debt is removed, it is easier to focus on contributing to society.

The sick...Medicare 4 All and pharmacare for all for medications. Even Trump has been in support on universal healthcare (which is cheaper in the long run, and thus should be favoured by conservatives instead of opposed) and he had a decent idea in removing state lines in regards to insurance to create competition back in 2016. Capitalism has its limits here when it comes to healthcare.

I get that you want to have capitalist solutions to long standing problems. Even climate change has those that want to solve the issue by using capitalism. But certain problems, like the sick and the homeless, do require socialism to fix them. It’s for the sake of creating fairness in terms of access.
These problems can never be fixed through economics. Like I said in my previous post, we have donated and spent trillions of dollars in the name of helping the less fortunate. It hasn't 'fixed' anything.

People can help themselves better than their government can. Crackhead Bob isn't homeless because of a failed system. It's not capitalism's fault.
 

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Actually, they can be fixed through economics.

And I never said it was the fault of capitalism. I suggested that it’s the fault of mismanagement within capitalism. And that certain problems can only be solved with socialism since management is better, although not perfect by any means.

My outlook, philosophy, and experiences are obviously very different from yours.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Actually, they can be fixed through economics.

And I never said it was the fault of capitalism. I suggested that it’s the fault of mismanagement within capitalism. And that certain problems can only be solved with socialism since management is better, although not perfect by any means.

My outlook, philosophy, and experiences are obviously very different from yours.
If you can corrupt capitalism, you can corrupt socialism.

But I am curious to hear your theory nonetheless. In your opinion how can 'economics' and socialism can fix Crackhead Bob's problem and turn him from a drug addicted bum into a productive member of society?
 

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If you can corrupt capitalism, you can corrupt socialism.

But I am curious to hear your theory nonetheless. In your opinion how can 'economics' and socialism can fix Crackhead Bob's problem and turn him from a drug addicted bum into a productive member of society?
Free healthcare, free mental healthcare, drug treatment programs, government approved job seekers centre, education.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Free healthcare, free mental healthcare, drug treatment programs, government approved job seekers centre, education.
Do you see a lot of crackheads filling out job applications? Lol.

What if Crackhead Bob doesn't want to get a job? What if he wants to be a bum and smoke crack?

There are already state funded drug treatment and detox centers scattered throughout the country. Doesn't seem to be working.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Just like if you can have corporate centered capitalism and corporate centered socialism. And human centered capitalism and human centered socialism
Anything with humans at the center is going to have flaws in it. There are aspects of society that require socialism, there are aspects that require capitalism.

Corporations and governments are both human constructs, hence they are both flawed. And yet if one wishes to live in a free society where their rights are guaranteed, they need both.
 

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The end of the economic world as we know it is when the world collectively realises that the USA has no intention of ever repaying it's national debt.

That is the day the dollar becomes worthless, peoples savings vanish, America goes bust, leaving a despotic regime relying on the only thing the USA will have left..it's vast military power.
Didn't really think any counties expected that money back. They were "loans" at the end of a nuke afterall.

The Dollar is only still worth anything b/c its the standard currency to buy crude oil. Once that goes away, The USA will crumble like the Fall of Rome.

Coincidence that the collapse of Rome was a direct result of the Plagues of Justinian? And with this new "plague" upon us, and another Great Depression emminent, the end maybe neigh for 'Murica.
 

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If you can corrupt capitalism, you can corrupt socialism.

But I am curious to hear your theory nonetheless. In your opinion how can 'economics' and socialism can fix Crackhead Bob's problem and turn him from a drug addicted bum into a productive member of society?
You can actually talk about the sick and homeless without leaping to a crackhead stereotype.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
You can actually talk about the sick and homeless without leaping to a crackhead stereotype.
That's the reality though, that's why it's a stereotype. Half of all homeless people are abusing drugs and/or alcohol, that's just a fact. You ever get asked for money outside 7/11? Spoiler they aren't asking for money so they could feed their poor starving kid at home.

No amount of care or money we throw at these people is going to help them. They need to help themselves first. Otherwise everything we give them is just going down the drain. It's lose/lose for EVERYBODY.

They don't need money, they need Jesus, Mohammad... whatever the fuck you wanna call it.
 

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That's the reality though, that's why it's a stereotype. Half of all homeless people are abusing drugs and/or alcohol, that's just a fact. You ever get asked for money outside 7/11? Spoiler they aren't asking for money so they could feed their poor starving kid at home.

No amount of care or money we throw at these people is going to help them. They need to help themselves first. Otherwise everything we give them is just going down the drain. It's lose/lose for EVERYBODY.

They don't need money, they need Jesus, Mohammad... whatever the fuck you wanna call it.
If that's a fact, provide a source(s). Otherwise that's all complete bullshit. It's dehumanising a group in order to justify whatever shit sandwiches you want to give to people.

If people can't help themselves for whatever reason, should the government just say 'fuck you' to them?
 

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Discussion Starter #55
If that's a fact, provide a source(s). Otherwise that's all complete bullshit. It's dehumanising a group in order to justify whatever shit sandwiches you want to give to people.

The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration(2003) estimates, 38% of homeless people were dependent on alcohol and 26% abused other drugs.

If you add those numbers it's obviously more than 50%... but clearly there are people who are accounted for in both of those groups. So if you overlap those figures and take a total tally of people addicted to either or, you are probably somewhere around 50% if not more.

If people can't help themselves for whatever reason, should the government just say 'fuck you' to them?
I'm not sure what exactly you're getting it. What exactly is your proposal? Outside of state funded detox/rehab, which we already provide, what more do you think we owe them? What more do you think we can do to help?

These are people who have completely alienated themselves from their family, their friends and the public as a whole. They contribute absolutely zero to society and zero to anyone else. They spend hours begging for change instead of working an honest job, and what little money they do scrounge up goes towards their next fix... which is only going to bring them closer to an early death. These are people who have clearly given up already.

As much as I would love to live in a utopia where everyone is happy and well off, that's just not reality. I know you mean well and the thought of people suffering bothers you, but it's no one's fault but theirs. So if they don't give a fuck about their own well being, why should anyone else?

What more do you think we should be doing?
 

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Be honest did you actually read that paper all the way through? It's basically illustrating the opposite of your point. Yes it says drugs are an issue.

It also says this:

Millions of Americans with substance
abuse dependences, both housed and
homeless, do not receive the treatment
they need.

Since many homeless people
do not have health insurance,
substance abuse treatment may be
especially unattainable. Other barriers
to services include long waiting lists,
lack of transportation and lack of
documentation.

Furthermore, few
federal substance abuse treatment and
prevention programs target funds
specifically to the homeless population.
Clearly more can be done according to your own paper. The services provided aren't good enough.

A 2014 survey by the United States Conference of Mayors asked 25 cities
for their top three causes of homelessness and substance abuse and the
lack of needed services was cited by 43% of cities
, making it tied for the
third leading cause.
So plenty of city officials in the know said the services they have weren't enough. You're talking like all the help in the world is there and they're not taking it up. That's what 'more we can do'.

Then the end of the paper:

Substance abuse often occurs simultaneously with mental illness. People with untreated mental illnesses frequently use street drugs
as a form of self-medication. Homeless people with both substance disorders and mental illness experience additional obstacles to
recovery, such as increased risk for violence and victimization and frequent cycling between the streets, jails and emergency rooms
(Fisher and Roget, 2009). Unfortunately, these people are often unable to find treatment facilities that will help them.
You neglected to address mental illness which is a huge factor along with drugs. Anyone can tell you that. That's not anyone 'alienating themselves from their family, friends etc'. It's no one's fault they end up with a mental illness that's a game changer. People who've had intense trauma and get debilitating PTSD don't fit it to any category of 'they brought it on themselves'.

People can be homeless for any number of reasons. If someone has lost their job in a shit economy and can't pay rent; if they need to run due to DV; if they have health complications and spent all their money on that and in huge debt because of it. To name a few reasons. They are not people who have 'alienated themselves from their family' etc etc as if they've chosen to because they're losers.

If more people saw them as real people rather than stereotypical losers, then maybe there would more support and action towards solutions like this:


Perhaps look at other countries that have a better handle on the problem to see what they can do different?
 
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