After CM Punk, Ryback and Moxley's shoots, why are people still blaming the talent? - Page 8 - Wrestling Forum: WWE, AEW, New Japan, Indy Wrestling, Women of Wrestling Forums

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post #71 of 93 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 03:50 PM
 
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Re: After CM Punk, Ryback and Moxley's shoots, why are people still blaming the talent?

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Well, considering what Ambrose/Mox looks like and the promos he's done in AEW already and his overall presentation, I'm going to go ahead and guess what Vince is rejecting is stuff that is mostly better than what he does. I don't know if you watch the weekly product or not, but the creative is pretty bad. Feel free to have whatever opinion you want. But the evidence has mounted way too much for me to believe anything else at this point, sadly.
You see this is the thing. You can leave the company and be a different character and it gets hotter than what you were in WWE. This is not new. It happened with Hall and Nash.

The problem is sustaining it. You can leave and be a different character and it takes off, but can you make it last. You need the right mix of characters. We have to see if this is going to be the case. Too many times some company says they are going to do this and that better and they fall off after a few months of not being patient after not seeing immediate results.

I totally get it. I know creative is BAD and I TRY to watch the current product, but the thing is almost unwatchable. It's been downhill since WM 31.

Moxley does come off fresher than the stale persona he had. We still should wait and see with AEW and if they actually are going to give audience what they have been missing. I liked what I saw at their last ppv and it looks promising, but doing weekly shows going up against Vince with RAW and Smackdown competitively is a different ball game.

Also, quality doesn't always equate to stardom. When I'm speaking about the roster and it not being all that great from what I see, I'm speaking from star power and generating electricity.

Some of the guys I mentioned such as Bryan and AJ are great talents who I do think is being mishandled. On the other hand, I also don't think no matter how much good booking they get they could be guys to run around the ship.

Roman I had actually saw as a good chosen one at one time, but horrible booking, Vince being stubborn on how to organically work with him, and Roman himself have changed my mind.

I just honestly don't have that much confidence in WWE, the talent, and the writers anymore. Some say it's all creative which I see why, but I have seen WWE at low points and I use to be able to see how they misused talent. The difference then was that I could actually see upward mobility where major shifts could change if they did certain major moves with certain players.

I just don't see it with the current roster or with this creative. I actually want to be wrong on this, but I was sensing WWE having these problems long term years ago under Cena. This is not me just thinking this in the last couple months, but it has come to a point where it seems they CAN'T turn this around even if they bring in new writers or a new head of creative.

They need NEW blood coming in with a fresh slate for people to see them as new and cutting edge. In late 96-97, I saw it in guys like Austin even though the ratings were in the crapper. I just don't really think if Vince does let these guys go all out creatively with freedom that it will magically just make fans come back or the product that much better.

The product is just poor right now and it's because of the whole system/formula they are using.
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Last edited by promoter2003; 06-09-2019 at 03:53 PM.
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post #72 of 93 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 04:06 PM
 
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Re: After CM Punk, Ryback and Moxley's shoots, why are people still blaming the talent?

Do people still blame the talent?

Most complaints I hear are centered on Vince and creative.

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post #73 of 93 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 04:29 PM
 
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Re: After CM Punk, Ryback and Moxley's shoots, why are people still blaming the talent?

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Originally Posted by promoter2003 View Post
You see this is the thing. You can leave the company and be a different character and it gets hotter than what you were in WWE. This is not new. It happened with Hall and Nash.

The problem is sustaining it. You can leave and be a different character and it takes off, but can you make it last. You need the right mix of characters. We have to see if this is going to be the case. Too many times some company says they are going to do this and that better and they fall off after a few months of not being patient after not seeing immediate results.

I totally get it. I know creative is BAD and I TRY to watch the current product, but the thing is almost unwatchable. It's been downhill since WM 31.

Moxley does come off fresher than the stale persona he had. We still should wait and see with AEW and if they actually are going to give audience what they have been missing. I liked what I saw at their last ppv and it looks promising, but doing weekly shows going up against Vince with RAW and Smackdown competitively is a different ball game.

Also, quality doesn't always equate to stardom. When I'm speaking about the roster and it not being all that great from what I see, I'm speaking from star power and generating electricity.

Some of the guys I mentioned such as Bryan and AJ are great talents who I do think is being mishandled. On the other hand, I also don't think no matter how much good booking they get they could be guys to run around the ship.

Roman I had actually saw as a good chosen one at one time, but horrible booking, Vince being stubborn on how to organically work with him, and Roman himself have changed my mind.

I just honestly don't have that much confidence in WWE, the talent, and the writers anymore. Some say it's all creative which I see why, but I have seen WWE at low points and I use to be able to see how they misused talent. The difference then was that I could actually see upward mobility where major shifts could change if they did certain major moves with certain players.

I just don't see it with the current roster or with this creative. I actually want to be wrong on this, but I was sensing WWE having these problems long term years ago under Cena. This is not me just thinking this in the last couple months, but it has come to a point where it seems they CAN'T turn this around even if they bring in new writers or a new head of creative.

They need NEW blood coming in with a fresh slate for people to see them as new and cutting edge. In late 96-97, I saw it in guys like Austin even though the ratings were in the crapper. I just don't really think if Vince does let these guys go all out creatively with freedom that it will magically just make fans come back or the product that much better.

The product is just poor right now and it's because of the whole system/formula they are using.
I agree with the star power sentiment. A lot of times, a popular/over wrestler is not going to connect with mainstream/casual audiences. Cena, who was booed for 10 years, is the biggest mainstream star since The Rock. The crowd trashed Batista when he went against Bryan but Batista is the Hollywood star who was just in the biggest movie of all time. Crowd craps on Reigns and he's in Hobbs and Shaw which is guaranteed to make a buttload of money. Fuck, the biggest star in the world and highest paid actor was second fiddle to Austin during AE and was booed against Punk. Being popular in front of a dwindling audience is no indication of how well they will connect with the masses. The Bellas, who everyone hates on here, is 10x more popular than Lynch and Asuka. That's why I don't buy the "X wrestler is over so he is more charismatic than Y." If that's the case, why is Reigns and Miz doing movies and reality shows while nobody knows who Seth is? Why is Rock a bigger star than Austin when Austin got bigger pops throughout AE?

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post #74 of 93 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 05:30 PM
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Re: After CM Punk, Ryback and Moxley's shoots, why are people still blaming the talent?

While probably a lot of the talent would be better with more freedom let's not pretend that giving freedom to everyone will suddenly turn them into superstars. As example Roderick Strong. Awesome wrestler, probably top 5 in ring workers in WWE, but a fucking charisma vacuum... just like in most of his indie run. Ember Moon, another example, I honestly haven't seen anything of her indie run but people who have say that she really wasn't that charisnatic or relatable even with more freedom.

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post #75 of 93 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 06:03 PM
 
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Re: After CM Punk, Ryback and Moxley's shoots, why are people still blaming the talent?

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I agree with the star power sentiment. A lot of times, a popular/over wrestler is not going to connect with mainstream/casual audiences. Cena, who was booed for 10 years, is the biggest mainstream star since The Rock. The crowd trashed Batista when he went against Bryan but Batista is the Hollywood star who was just in the biggest movie of all time. Crowd craps on Reigns and he's in Hobbs and Shaw which is guaranteed to make a buttload of money. Fuck, the biggest star in the world and highest paid actor was second fiddle to Austin during AE and was booed against Punk. Being popular in front of a dwindling audience is no indication of how well they will connect with the masses. The Bellas, who everyone hates on here, is 10x more popular than Lynch and Asuka. That's why I don't buy the "X wrestler is over so he is more charismatic than Y." If that's the case, why is Reigns and Miz doing movies and reality shows while nobody knows who Seth is? Why is Rock a bigger star than Austin when Austin got bigger pops throughout AE?
I'm glad you brought this point up. Being a GREAT pro wrestler isn't just about workrate. It is also about GETTING HEAT which in other words I called electricity.

The reason I brought up low points before is that you could still see guys being able to garner serious HEAT even if certain booking or writing sucked.

The Steve Austin as ringmaster thing gets brought up sometimes as if that was a bad thing. You could TELL Austin had presence in the ring even when he was being stoic. Even Rocky Maivia, as dorky as he was you could see where they were trying to go with him and why. He had that All American look to him and he fit the traditional babyface. The fans just thought he got pushed too fast and they wanted to knock the smile off his face.

His actual ring work wasn't really attacked, but there was something about Rocky Maivia that made people react with "Die Rocky Die". This was not even something WWE purposely done. It was the "it" factor he had.

Roman Reigns for all WWE's screw up of his push originally had a presence to him(it could be down to him getting all the pop spots in things related to The Shield). It's also the wrestlers knowing timing and how to milk the audience's reactions as well. This is something that has NOTHING to do with the writing, booking, or Vince Mcmahon. It's about working the audience as well and not just trying to work a 5 star match to get hardcore fans to say you're the best in the world.

Guys like Shawn Michaels knew how to do both. He would piss people off (for instance his WM 13 ring intro jumping on the steps and throwing the Clique sign which was to mock Bret about him losing his smile and to also piss of WWF fans about the NWO) and then go in there and do 5 star matches especially in 1996 and 1997. He got it that it was more than just having a good worked match. You have to know how to work the audience in the arena and at home. That is what separates good talent with really GREAT talent.

Here's another example. Steve Austin is in the ring at the 1997 Royal Rumble waiting for his next opponent. What does he do? He starts looking at his wrist as if he was looking at his watch counting down the time for the next rival to step into the ring.

That is NOT CREATIVE coming up with that stuff. That is Austin thinking on the fly and timing things to work the audience into his character. It's a small thing, but it is a nuance that makes you stand out and makes audiences pay attention to you regardless of the material.

This is why I'm saying what I'm saying about today's roster.
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post #76 of 93 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 06:09 PM
 
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Re: After CM Punk, Ryback and Moxley's shoots, why are people still blaming the talent?

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Fans here actually thinking there is a Rock or Austin on the current roster. Stop trying to put over the PC era cause it will never be anything but a big fail. Poor pathetic fans clinging to any wrestler hoping they will be a star when they are all shit.
If you go back to when The Rock was Rocky Maivia and Austin was The Ringmaster and asked, "who could be the next Hogan?" I doubt many people would have answered Rock or Austin. Austin was amazing in WCW and ECW but of course many WWE fans ignore the other wrestling out there so they had no clue to his talent. They were both stuck in dead end gimmicks and if they weren't allowed to have the creative freedom given they would have never pulled off their success. But once they were allowed to show what they could do people started to take notice and watch. They most definitely are a few wrestlers in the current crop that could become huge stars if they could have more creative freedom and non scripted promos.

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post #77 of 93 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 06:30 PM
 
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Re: After CM Punk, Ryback and Moxley's shoots, why are people still blaming the talent?

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If you go back to when The Rock was Rocky Maivia and Austin was The Ringmaster and asked, "who could be the next Hogan?" I doubt many people would have answered Rock or Austin. Austin was amazing in WCW and ECW but of course many WWE fans ignore the other wrestling out there so they had no clue to his talent. They were both stuck in dead end gimmicks and if they weren't allowed to have the creative freedom given they would have never pulled off their success. But once they were allowed to show what they could do people started to take notice and watch. They most definitely are a few wrestlers in the current crop that could become huge stars if they could have more creative freedom and non scripted promos.
No. The Rock working out on Instagram can get 10 million likes and views. Nobody on the current roster can garner that kind of interest. Nobody can do an interview and leave the host blown away by sheer charisma. Nobody connects with fans where said fans would wait all night to meet them.
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post #78 of 93 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 06:35 PM
 
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If you go back to when The Rock was Rocky Maivia and Austin was The Ringmaster and asked, "who could be the next Hogan?" I doubt many people would have answered Rock or Austin. Austin was amazing in WCW and ECW but of course many WWE fans ignore the other wrestling out there so they had no clue to his talent. They were both stuck in dead end gimmicks and if they weren't allowed to have the creative freedom given they would have never pulled off their success. But once they were allowed to show what they could do people started to take notice and watch. They most definitely are a few wrestlers in the current crop that could become huge stars if they could have more creative freedom and non scripted promos.
Actually Austin was always a dirt sheet favorite with a lot of people saying he had huge star potential if a company would just get behind him. Did they think he had Hogan potential? Well, I donít think anyone can see that coming until itís right on the horizon. Rocky, I think he was much more of a surprise. He certainly had the look and athleticism, but who could have seen that personality coming?

So, I think sometimes you can see it and sometimes you canít. Looking at the current WWE roster I donít see much that has obvious big star potential. Elias does, but after that itís hard to see much that doesnít have that indy wrestler feel.
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post #79 of 93 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 08:55 PM
 
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Re: After CM Punk, Ryback and Moxley's shoots, why are people still blaming the talent?

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I'm glad you brought this point up. Being a GREAT pro wrestler isn't just about workrate. It is also about GETTING HEAT which in other words I called electricity.

The reason I brought up low points before is that you could still see guys being able to garner serious HEAT even if certain booking or writing sucked.

The Steve Austin as ringmaster thing gets brought up sometimes as if that was a bad thing. You could TELL Austin had presence in the ring even when he was being stoic. Even Rocky Maivia, as dorky as he was you could see where they were trying to go with him and why. He had that All American look to him and he fit the traditional babyface. The fans just thought he got pushed too fast and they wanted to knock the smile off his face.

His actual ring work wasn't really attacked, but there was something about Rocky Maivia that made people react with "Die Rocky Die". This was not even something WWE purposely done. It was the "it" factor he had.

Roman Reigns for all WWE's screw up of his push originally had a presence to him(it could be down to him getting all the pop spots in things related to The Shield). It's also the wrestlers knowing timing and how to milk the audience's reactions as well. This is something that has NOTHING to do with the writing, booking, or Vince Mcmahon. It's about working the audience as well and not just trying to work a 5 star match to get hardcore fans to say you're the best in the world.

Guys like Shawn Michaels knew how to do both. He would piss people off (for instance his WM 13 ring intro jumping on the steps and throwing the Clique sign which was to mock Bret about him losing his smile and to also piss of WWF fans about the NWO) and then go in there and do 5 star matches especially in 1996 and 1997. He got it that it was more than just having a good worked match. You have to know how to work the audience in the arena and at home. That is what separates good talent with really GREAT talent.

Here's another example. Steve Austin is in the ring at the 1997 Royal Rumble waiting for his next opponent. What does he do? He starts looking at his wrist as if he was looking at his watch counting down the time for the next rival to step into the ring.

That is NOT CREATIVE coming up with that stuff. That is Austin thinking on the fly and timing things to work the audience into his character. It's a small thing, but it is a nuance that makes you stand out and makes audiences pay attention to you regardless of the material.

This is why I'm saying what I'm saying about today's roster.
That's why I still believe in Roman and understand why Vince chose him as FOTC or whatever you want to call his position. He has an aura and legit presence that many wrestlers lack right now. Yes, the audience shit on him but he has a lot of international fans and is very popular on social media (Twitter/Instagram/Youtube/Facebook/Tumblr) My friends who do not watch wrestling at all know who he is. He has the look for Hollywood and possesses mainstream appeal.
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post #80 of 93 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 10:01 PM
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Re: After CM Punk, Ryback and Moxley's shoots, why are people still blaming the talent?

Kofi Kingston and Seth Rollins are fucking garbage and NOTHING Vince or creative does can change that. So yes, sometimes the talent is to blame.
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