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post #91 of 99 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 08:39 AM
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kobe Re: Is WWE worse now than it was 10 years ago?

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I would wager wrestling is in a better place now more than ever in spite of the naysayers.
I've got to push back here. Starting in the late 90s and extending to about 2005, a good number of people in my social network enjoyed wrestling, and you would see tons of people in public walking around in wrestling t-shirts.

Fast-forward to 2019. Not to sound like a jerk, but I have a pretty expansive friend set that stretches from retirement age to kids, all around the world; I can count on two hands, out of those thousands of people, those that I know actually watch WWE today. And as for the t-shirts...well, in 2019, the only time I recall seeing someone in WWE swag was a hung-over guy wearing a faded nWo Wolfpac shirt while his dog dragged him down the street.

So, let's not get caught up in hyperbole. WWE hasn't quite yet hit the lows of early 1997 or 2009, but 2019 is definitely one of WWE's lows.
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post #92 of 99 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 01:15 PM
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Re: Is WWE worse now than it was 10 years ago?

I started watching in 2008 and enjoyed it every week. I lost interest in 2017.

Now, I haven't watched a full episode of Raw or Smackdown in 8 months.

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post #93 of 99 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 02:16 PM
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Re: Is WWE worse now than it was 10 years ago?

As was said by one Leeroy Jethro Gibbs.. "If you have to ask.."

What say you?




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post #94 of 99 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 05:35 PM
 
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Re: Is WWE worse now than it was 10 years ago?

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Originally Posted by Strike Force View Post
2009 was hideous and the nadir of post-1995 WWE. As abominable as the modern product is, it can't touch the Guest Host Era.
Nah it's worst now. Everything about it except for the talent pool is much much worst now.
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post #95 of 99 (permalink) Old 05-17-2019, 12:08 PM
 
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Re: Is WWE worse now than it was 10 years ago?

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Originally Posted by Greenlawler View Post
Fair enough....but I refuse to be fooled into thinking this is a different company.

I mean really Capitol Sports, WWWF, WWF, WWE are the same entity. To say they are not well I don't agree.

You can slap a new name on anything but really what significant changes happened when they changed names?

Really the question was "is wrestling worse" and tons of folks came in and said we are at a low point. That's all I was addressing because that simply is not true.

Fact is the talent now is 100 times better. Compare talent even in 2009 to today, it is night and day. The WWE has signed pretty much all the indy talent outside of a few AEW stars.

This is the same old promotion it was in 63. But are we really complaining? I mean WM is like a Super Bowl attraction for cities trying to get it across America. I live in a city that just had the NFL draft and drew 600,000 people, most talk radio stations were calling for a Wrestlemania next, is wrestling that bad off? But yeah I remember when people were griping about wrestling sucking during the Monday Night Wars too, because it was not the territories....so there's that. Things are not that bad.

And today's Raw is light years better than the 70's product and especially the 80-83 product. I mean really in 1983 the WWF's 2 hour cable show was a talk show format.....a talk show

I know wrestling maybe in a lull in terms of story lines...but seriously the WWE is a juggernaut today, that even Roman cannot ruin. Today's WWE is easily as important as it was at it's peak in 84. And as a fan of the 84 WWF it pains me to admit that, but it's reality.

Proof? Look no further than the success of the Divas and Miz shows on USA.....unheard of success in any other time period. Plus the You Tube subscribers of any wrestling commentator.

Wrestling has gone viral, something it never has done before. But yeah 2019 is a low point.......

I would wager wrestling is in a better place now more than ever in spite of the naysayers. And in spite of my territory upbringing.

This coming from someone who has always thought the WWE was trash....lol. Gotta be honest.
Ok, I get what you mean by the changing of the name and so on doesn't mean it is not the same company. What I am getting at is that the culture of the company is not the same at all. It is why I said the WWE of 1998 I could see going straight up crushing competition like AEW, but THIS company I'm not so sure about. With that said, I still have my reservations about AEW.

Every company that has tried to go against Vince Mcmahon has failed since I have been watching BESIDES WCW. If we are being honest, WCW only BEAT WWF because they originally blurred the lines with fans making them think WWF was invading WCW. Then they used WWF made stars.

As for "is wrestling worse", I see you are speaking from the perspective of WWE being a more established franchise than ever before. That is really not in question. What is in question is the core product, fan apathy, and an aging creative department.

The talent conversation is always going to be debated on terms of how skilled they are, but what can't be disputed is whether the talent is drawing in people and making them invest their time. I think it is clear this roster just isn't cutting it. I know the defense mechanism is to say creative has them in shackles, but there is a big difference now and then. If the fans were into someone most of the times they would still get behind the wrestlers due to them being able to draw fans into them like a magnet.

I use the Undertaker for example. The guy had horrendous storylines at times in the 90's, but he would still be an attraction in 1994 because his character was simply liked. Diesel sucked as champion, BUT you could still see him grabbing people's attention even when he was about to leave(post Survivor Series 95 Diesel for example).

WWE creative has always been lacking in terms of sustaining characters and angles over a long period. I'd even wager long term wise WWE was never better than summer 97 to summer 98 and January 2000 to August 2000. The big difference I see is that regardless how inept creative may get the wrestlers were still able to understand how to get over with the audience.

This roster seems lost in terms of doing that and also come off as robotic. I have had friends who even comment to me that it seems like WWE doesn't even try anymore not come off fake on the screen. These are long time fans who back in the day would laugh at me when I would stick with Monday Night Raw over Nitro in 1997. I was able to actually explain how WWE was going to eventually take over and they did because of how the essence of the company would become with the new stars they were building.

RAW is light years in production from the 70's yes, BUT it is the same format that WWE changed into in 1997 when it went to 2 hours to battle Nitro. To some fans who started watching WWE in that time period they may tend to believe today's WWE has actually fallen off.

They are recycling concepts which is fine, but they can't have the concepts be blatantly inferior. One minute Roman is being pushed like Cena and then the next minute he is being pushed like Steve Austin. The fans can smell that what they are doing is not authentic in terms of when Austin was doing his gig it felt organic due to what really did happen with him in his career being blocked by management. Whether if it was true or not the fans bought into it.

WWE right now is going through what they did in 1993 to 1995 in trying to find the heir apparent of the mold they built with Hogan in Luger and Diesel. It failed miserably because the fans didn't buy it.

I can't honestly say this talent is 100 times better simply because they are being told to work more workrate into their matches. For example, who on this roster could put on a match like HBK vs UT did in 2009? NOBODY!

Who on the roster today is as over as Batista or John Cena were in 2009? NOBODY! Part of being a great talent is being able to garner heat even when the storyline sucks imo. The guys now may appeal to the niche workrate frenzy fans(which includes me btw), but they lack charisma, acting, and intensity that will make a viewer take time out to watch them instead of the million of other things that they could watch or do.

WWE today is a habit to a small audience in comparison to what they could be grabbing. The other thing is the WWE has made people lose faith in them and it has been going on this way for years now. This is why the ratings always drop big time after WM season.

The WWE depending on legends during the most important time of the year always gives the perception that the rest of the year is pointless along with its champions. The WWE signing up everyone doesn't mean it is better. We saw how WCW had way more talent depth than WWE, but they still ended up losing in the long run when everyone started to jump ship. In 1998, WWE had less depth on their roster than WCW. However, WWE still managed to compete and beat them in the ratings that year. They did so because the handful of guys they had knew how to captivate the audience.

Maybe 1984 was the peak, but notice how you are comparing WWE today of having the peak of a company over 30 years ago? I actually think the WWF peaked in 1987 (summer of 86 to WM 3 the WWF could never reach that hype and box office without Hogan/Orndorff/Andre/Piper) and was living on borrowed time in 1988 to 1990 until the bottom fell out in 1993.

This is how I see the current WWE. They have thrown everything at the wall to see what will stick since WM 30 and have not got this roster over in terms of trying to create a new era that prosperity. They have done things financially to cut corners and had boosts like the tv deal and Saudi deals.

They were hanging on the draw of Brock Lesnar and brought in Ronda to try to put over the current roster and it hasn't worked for the most part. The WWE use to be the star, but now they are using UFC to help them seem relevant.

The WWE right now is living off its glory of the Attitude Era and being the survivor of the Monday Night War. They gained the whole industry on Monday nights to themselves since WCW went under and have failed miserably in grabbing the total wrestling pie imo.

They are there doing this current financial business because they are the infrastructure of the industry which the 90's war built, but in no way is the current WWE any better than what they were 10 years ago.

As HBK said in his promo with Hogan in his feud with him. It has been the same ol' crap with a little glory sprinkled in (return of Rock, Cena, Lesnar, Bryan etc.).

As for Miz and The Divas show, I think shows like that are the reason why some of the wrestlers can't get over. It is overexposing the core product. It would be unheard of in any other time period because the WWF or other leagues would not give the green light to any show like that because of the fear of exposing the main product.

You think the WWE couldn't do a reality show with The Rock or Austin or Sable and not actually do bigger numbers than Miz or the Divas? The WWE doing those type of shows now imo has more to do with the main product not accessing new fans. They have to create these other outlets to get people to know the wrestlers today.

This was not a problem before because the wrestlers were seen as pop icons themselves that the mainstream was calling for their shows such as SNL. Pop culture today WWE is irrelevant and that is why there is fear that they will get exposed on FOX Sports as being irrelevant when the ratings will pinpoint Vince sold Fox a bridge under water.
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Last edited by promoter2003; 05-17-2019 at 12:17 PM.
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post #96 of 99 (permalink) Old 05-17-2019, 02:32 PM
 
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Re: Is WWE worse now than it was 10 years ago?

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Originally Posted by Greenlawler View Post
So no offense to anyone, but anyone who say's the WWE is at it's lowest point right now did not live through the incarnation of the same promotion in the late 70's, and early 90's.....and then again around 2009....

There is hope lol. I don't have much but Hogan/Slaughter came along in 84, Austin Rock did too in the late 90's.....here's hoping for a new star to breakthrough.

I think as long as storytelling is alive there will always be room for a really great new breakthrough star to bring wrestling back to the mainstream, much like Hogan, Slaughter, Austin, nWo, Rock, Goldberg, and somewhat others.......I mean to a lesser extent Taker, HBK, Angle, Brock and Cena got us some high points.....I guess I just have hope that wrestling will always survive because it has at even lower points.
Not even sure you can bring anything before Vince Jr. into the discussion, because (as you know) WWWF wasn't the global entity that it is today. It may not have even been the top territory (it probably wasn't although from what I understand people did view working MSG as the biggest thing they could do).

Not that it necessarily was in the early 90s - but it was after Vince had taken out most of the regional territories and I think it is more of a valid comparison.

Looking back - the 90's era was pretty bad - but maybe it was because I was a young teenager then and people tend to look at things being better in their youth - but I could still tolerate Bret Hart, Shawn, etc, etc. Even the stupid gimmicks. Hell - I was excited to go to SummerSlam 1995 and still watched (although I do admit I did not watch AS MUCH as I did in the 80s era when I was a young kid).

2009 was bad in a lot of ways - but that was my all time favorite version of Jericho - that character alone is better than anything in 2018/2019 by 10 times.

I haven't watched WWE in over a year that is why I say 2018, so maybe I am not qualified to comment - but I try to look at these forums and websites and try to stay on top of things to an extent - but nothing can bring me back. Nothing sounds remotely interesting. These "stars" are all cookie cutter. I can say the marathon WM 34 (and it was another marathon this year I understand) really I just said peace out to watching the product.

EDIT - Also wanted to add a few points - WWE today is completely reliant on their billion dollar TV deals. TV is a dying breed. What is WWE going to rely on once the TV networks say goodbye to it (that day is coming in the next 10 years I really believe that). Live attendance? From all accounts live attendance is at a very low point. TV as a whole is starting to die off in lieu of streaming services. There are so many options out there that I don't see anyone giving the WWE (or any wrestling company) billions of dollars to host their product. Maybe I am wrong - but I feel like the bubble is gonna burst on wrestling eventually UNLESS they improve their product.

I think the argument that WWE is going great financially now - while is not false - I think is misleading and giving the business as a whole a false sense of security.
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Last edited by herbski; 05-17-2019 at 02:53 PM.
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post #97 of 99 (permalink) Old 05-17-2019, 04:00 PM
 
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Re: Is WWE worse now than it was 10 years ago?

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Originally Posted by herbski View Post

EDIT - Also wanted to add a few points - WWE today is completely reliant on their billion dollar TV deals. TV is a dying breed. What is WWE going to rely on once the TV networks say goodbye to it (that day is coming in the next 10 years I really believe that). Live attendance? From all accounts live attendance is at a very low point. TV as a whole is starting to die off in lieu of streaming services. There are so many options out there that I don't see anyone giving the WWE (or any wrestling company) billions of dollars to host their product. Maybe I am wrong - but I feel like the bubble is gonna burst on wrestling eventually UNLESS they improve their product.

I think the argument that WWE is going great financially now - while is not false - I think is misleading and giving the business as a whole a false sense of security.
This is what I sense too and the reason being that the WWE came closest to a boom in 2007 when Cena imo was at his peak, BUT Cena was over for the wrong reasons. The fans wanted him out of the title picture OR they wanted Dr. of Thugonomics Cena.

That time period is very important because I feel the WWE thought short term there with Cena and may have done long term damage which we are seeing now when they try to push guys like Roman.

The WWE from 2005 until now is a different beast and not in a good way in how it interacts with the wrestling audience. The majority of fans may see WWE as a big troll who teases them and never gives them what they desire at the end of the wait game.

Now the way I have seen the business cycle over the years it gives me the impression that since that era of Cena did not go over as hard as the era of the Attitude Era things may be harder now than ever to try to recapture a lapse audience.

By this I mean for all the glory of the Attitude Era, it can't be ignored the root reason why there was a huge audience again to begin with. It had to do with the 80's stars reinventing themselves in WCW and jogging the memories of old WWF fans who witnessed Hogan and Piper in their prime.

There was more brand recognition then when wrestling was booming before the 2nd boom. This needs to be taken into consideration because if the audience who came back weren't emotionally interested than they would not have stuck around for when the new guys like Rock and Austin captured their attention.

I see this huge gap that today's WWE has and is perhaps why they tried to use Ronda Rousey and Brock Lesnar to put over the new era. Cena they really botched bad and the same with Roman imo. There won't be that same connection that caused that generation gap to unite during the 90's. You need household brand names and new stars mixed together to have the masses care imo. This is why I see why this current roster is going to have serious problems especially now since Cena seemed to move on(he won't have the impact he could have to put people over as say Hogan did because that time he was getting that extreme heat to turn heel is long gone).

One sign the WWE knew part of their business model was getting outdated or was going to face hardships was the changing of the ppv landscape. They turned to streaming which was good, but it also signaled people aren't willing to dish out big money monthly anymore for WWE.

No matter how you cut it the WWE giving away WM for $10 in 1998 would be seen as bush league. They have now dropped the price for the ppv shows for a reason. The network is a great move in terms of WWE being able to still present their product if tv all of a sudden pulls an unexpected move like how TNT/Time Warner pulled the plug on Nitro.

The thing is the network is not cheap to run and the WWE as you stated depends heavily on tv deals when before the company was reliant on ppv and live attendance. There could be serious issues down the line because of this.

It goes back to what I was saying about the guys needing to draw people into arenas and for ratings. The WWE right now is relying on the brand to sell which I think is not good long term because of how they have portrayed the owners and how basically it seems WWE seems to care more about entertaining one man instead of its global audience.

I actually want the WWE to get better, but these last few years I see WWE coasting due to no competition. They have tested the patience of the masses and it is coming back to haunt them slowly.
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Last edited by promoter2003; 05-17-2019 at 04:08 PM.
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post #98 of 99 (permalink) Old 05-17-2019, 04:01 PM
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Re: Is WWE worse now than it was 10 years ago?

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Originally Posted by Strike Force View Post
I've got to push back here. Starting in the late 90s and extending to about 2005, a good number of people in my social network enjoyed wrestling, and you would see tons of people in public walking around in wrestling t-shirts.

Fast-forward to 2019. Not to sound like a jerk, but I have a pretty expansive friend set that stretches from retirement age to kids, all around the world; I can count on two hands, out of those thousands of people, those that I know actually watch WWE today. And as for the t-shirts...well, in 2019, the only time I recall seeing someone in WWE swag was a hung-over guy wearing a faded nWo Wolfpac shirt while his dog dragged him down the street.

So, let's not get caught up in hyperbole. WWE hasn't quite yet hit the lows of early 1997 or 2009, but 2019 is definitely one of WWE's lows.
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post #99 of 99 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 02:03 AM
 
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Re: Is WWE worse now than it was 10 years ago?

WWE needs serious competition. It was at its greatest when competing with WCW for viewers.

When you have a company selling a similar product, what happens is, you are forced to improve your own product. You don't want to lose customers to the other company. So in order to keep customers, you try to make your product as good as possible, you constantly strive to improve.

This just isn't happening with professional wrestling today.

Competition is happening in other industries, like streaming services, product shipping, video games, etc. You have many companies with streaming services, you have Amazon and Wal-Mart competing for customers, you have Sony vs. Microsoft. As a result, access to shows has never been easier or cheaper, shipping never faster, and video game consoles have never been better. WWE is all by itself.
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