Vince Russo on the lack of pyschology hurting the business - Page 2 - Wrestling Forum: WWE, AEW, New Japan, Indy Wrestling, Women of Wrestling Forums

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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 01:12 AM
 
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Re: Vince Russo on the lack of pyschology hurting the business

Why do people separate workrate from psychology. In my opinion if you don't have psychology you can't really work. Anybody can learn to do moves that's not special or a talent. The real talent id making what you do matter to the audience to engage them in the match. You can take all the ridiculous masturbatory spots and flips and stick them where the sun doesn't shine, because if you can't give me a reason to care it isn't worth my time in watching it. The people who are truly great make you invested emotionally. You don't need to have 100,000 moves just make the moves you do matter. The biggest part of a wrestling match is what happens between the moves. It's not often that Russo is wholly right in his opinions(I like the guy because he admits who he is and his views on the business and holds fast to them unapologetically.). This however is one of those times where he is right. The guys today don't give a damn about putting on show where people are actually invested in what goes on they just want the crowds to cheer for them and say "this is awesome" and "you deserve it" even though they are all mostly shells of past talents. Many of the guys in WWE and other places today wouldn't be worthy of shining the boots of guys like Michaels, Hennig, Hart, Flair, Savage, Steamboat, Roberts, Rude, Guerrero etc. They are all marks for themselves.
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 01:16 AM
 
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Re: Vince Russo on the lack of pyschology hurting the business

He's right. How many suicide dives do we see every week just on Raw alone? At least 2 or 3.

Charlotte almost broke her freakin neck doing a moonsault to Nia Jax a few weeks ago. Yes, Nia was mostly at fault by not catching her properly, but it still shouldn't have been done in the first place in a throwaway match nobody will remember.

Save the high spots for PPV.

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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 01:19 AM
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Re: Vince Russo on the lack of pyschology hurting the business

I get what he's saying, but he's making it sound like every single match is solely dedicated to just popping the crowd and making them chant, while making zero effort to actually give them a match that builds properly and isn't just a spotfest.

In reality, having spotfests isn't a bad thing. The main problem I have is there is too little variety in the WWE style, where every match seems somewhat similar with the case of only a few guys.

Also, if they wrote better storylines, they could have those carry the matches and feuds more and guys would have to rely less on dangerous moves to get themselves over. Same goes with general promo ability and storytelling ability, which some guys do have (to say nobody has it is like the old man talking about how everything sucks these days).
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 01:22 AM
 
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Re: Vince Russo on the lack of pyschology hurting the business

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Originally Posted by MonkasaurusRex View Post
Why do people separate workrate from psychology. In my opinion if you don't have psychology you can't really work. Anybody can learn to do moves that's not special or a talent. The real talent id making what you do matter to the audience to engage them in the match. You can take all the ridiculous masturbatory spots and flips and stick them where the sun doesn't shine, because if you can't give me a reason to care it isn't worth my time in watching it. The people who are truly great make you invested emotionally. You don't need to have 100,000 moves just make the moves you do matter. The biggest part of a wrestling match is what happens between the moves. It's not often that Russo is wholly right in his opinions(I like the guy because he admits who he is and his views on the business and holds fast to them unapologetically.). This however is one of those times where he is right. The guys today don't give a damn about putting on show where people are actually invested in what goes on they just want the crowds to cheer for them and say "this is awesome" and "you deserve it" even though they are all mostly shells of past talents. Many of the guys in WWE and other places today wouldn't be worthy of shining the boots of guys like Michaels, Hennig, Hart, Flair, Savage, Steamboat, Roberts, Rude, Guerrero etc. They are all marks for themselves.
Problem is, its really hard to get emotionally invested in a match when you're not invested in the character. Like really hard. Theres plenty of people(the cruiserweights in particular) who have awesome work rate and psychology but the crowd don't give a fuck about them because they haven't been given a reason to. This leads to people thinking these guys are only spot monkey who can't get emotional investment in their matches when in reality, its due to the booking of their characters and the storylines they are put in.


Psychology isn't noticeable to casuals most of the time. Try watching a brilliant action scene from a movie or show you have never watched before. You won't appreciate the small quirks, the nuances, their dialogue which creates the psychology in the scene. You know what you will appreciate, the action. I think you can see how this works in a match.

In short, too many wrestlers are relying on high risk moves because they don't have the emotional investment for the psychology to work. Its not on them, its creative's fault for not giving a reason for fans to care. Its just people think inputting paychology in matches is just this easy fix when in reality, there are plenty of psychology in some matches but they get overlooked because the emotional investment in the characters and the story isn't there to truly appreciate it.
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 01:27 AM
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Re: Vince Russo on the lack of pyschology hurting the business

He realizes Bliss is on RAW now right?!?

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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 01:36 AM
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Re: Vince Russo on the lack of pyschology hurting the business

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Originally Posted by MonkasaurusRex View Post
Why do people separate workrate from psychology. In my opinion if you don't have psychology you can't really work. Anybody can learn to do moves that's not special or a talent. The real talent id making what you do matter to the audience to engage them in the match. You can take all the ridiculous masturbatory spots and flips and stick them where the sun doesn't shine, because if you can't give me a reason to care it isn't worth my time in watching it. The people who are truly great make you invested emotionally. You don't need to have 100,000 moves just make the moves you do matter. The biggest part of a wrestling match is what happens between the moves. It's not often that Russo is wholly right in his opinions(I like the guy because he admits who he is and his views on the business and holds fast to them unapologetically.). This however is one of those times where he is right. The guys today don't give a damn about putting on show where people are actually invested in what goes on they just want the crowds to cheer for them and say "this is awesome" and "you deserve it" even though they are all mostly shells of past talents. Many of the guys in WWE and other places today wouldn't be worthy of shining the boots of guys like Michaels, Hennig, Hart, Flair, Savage, Steamboat, Roberts, Rude, Guerrero etc. They are all marks for themselves.
I agree with your philosophy here. Telling a captivating in-ring story that makes narrative sense is an important part of working. "Workrate" is a silly term, and it's entirely subjective as well. Well, even more so than psychology. If the best play-by-play commentator in the history of modern wrestling is doing his best not to bury you by shutting up with his analysis (bonus points if you know who this is in reference to), then you aren't "workrating" as well as you think you are. You're just doing Movez. Russo doesn't honestly give a shit about this, though -- he is talking to hear the sound of his own voice. He would have gone nuts for this in '99, because he would have felt it would have held an audience.

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He's right. How many suicide dives do we see every week just on Raw alone? At least 2 or 3.

Charlotte almost broke her freakin neck doing a moonsault to Nia Jax a few weeks ago. Yes, Nia was mostly at fault by not catching her properly, but it still shouldn't have been done in the first place in a throwaway match nobody will remember.

Save the high spots for PPV.
Lance Storm said something really interesting about this in one of his early podcasts in regards to the Clash of Champions PPV. I'd listen to Lance Storm on this sort of stuff way before I listened to Vince Russo. He's come to the right conclusion, but you cannot trust his working. Storm, on the other hand, identified something that I had experienced whilst watching the PPV. It was a distinct feeling of "sameness." Sasha Banks followed a Sami Zayn match (I cannot tell you who Zayn was working from memory, and I've usually got a pretty good memory). Sasha Banks was in a Triple Threat with Charlotte and Bayley. But there were the same spots as every women's match and even the same spots from Banks as there was from Sami, like either the same agent put both matches together and didn't give a shit, or different agents did it and no one bothered to watch the show to keep an eye on these things.

Part of being a worker is being flexible and being able to respond to what a crowd is hungry for. If they've been given a suicide dive every match, why would they mark out for yours? And Storm succinctly pointed out that everybody does a dive and tries to work their dive in. In really put me in a bad mood about wrestling when he identified what I was feeling. I imagine a bunch of geeks all sitting around comparing dicks and saying "Cool dive, bro! Check out mine later!" instead of actually trying to get ahead and put together a well-constructed show. Ugh.

This is when I started noticing the work of Rusev more. Less than other guys he does the kick out of finishers thing. He's presented as a tough dude, but he doesn't need false finishes to pull that off. He doesn't do anything particularly flashy in the ring, but it all makes sense and a lot of it looks really good. He did try to work over Roman Reigns with a kendo stick despite him wearing body armor the following month...but not everything can be perfect.

I honestly think that Rusev might just be one of the more promising workers in the entire industry right now. He glues me to his stuff a lot more than other guys who do the very same thing as everybody else.
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 01:46 AM
 
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Re: Vince Russo on the lack of pyschology hurting the business

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Originally Posted by Laughable Chimp View Post
Problem is, its really hard to get emotionally invested in a match when you're not invested in the character. Like really hard. Theres plenty of people(the cruiserweights in particular) who have awesome work rate and psychology but the crowd don't give a fuck about them because they haven't been given a reason to. This leads to people thinking these guys are only spot monkey who can't get emotional investment in their matches when in reality, its due to the booking of their characters and the storylines they are put in.


Psychology isn't noticeable to casuals most of the time. Try watching a brilliant action scene from a movie or show you have never watched before. You won't appreciate the small quirks, the nuances, their dialogue which creates the psychology in the scene. You know what you will appreciate, the action. I think you can see how this works in a match.

In short, too many wrestlers are relying on high risk moves because they don't have the emotional investment for the psychology to work. Its not on them, its creative's fault for not giving a reason for fans to care. Its just people think inputting paychology in matches is just this easy fix when in reality, there are plenty of psychology in some matches but they get overlooked because the emotional investment in the characters and the story isn't there to truly appreciate it.
I cannot stress enough how ridiculous it is to absolve performers for not being interesting. Sure creative doesn't do them any favours, but fact of the matter is a lot of these guys are playing the same character they played before coming to WWE. They just aren't interesting. Then on top of that the don't even try to become interesting characters. Shawn Michales was interesting in 1992 & 1995 both are times when WWE was barren creatively and in a culture change, Bret Hart was always one of the most rudimentary "characters" in wrestling yet he was interesting. They are guys that didn't settle for good enough. Guys these days settle and the hardcore fans let them settle. If they tried to be interesting maybe they would succeed even if it is in a car crash manner at least it is there.

Of course character is part and parcel to emotional investment. It's plain as day. None of the guys care nor does creative, because they have all settled for good enough. It's a glaring problem in North American pro wrestling. Until the mentality changes this is what we are stuck with. AJ Styles wouldn't be more interesting with better creative behind him, because he is plying the same AJ Styles he has always played and while he is a wonderful in ring performer especially in this generation he is a boring character and always has been. Nowhere he has been has made any great strides in improving that aspect of his presentation. It's just that there is a mentality of it being good enough. The WWE especially suffers from this because they have been making record profits even with live attendance and TV ratings down. When that bubble bursts it's going to be a catastrophe because the only compelling characters are Nostalgia acts and part time performers who are past their prime.
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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 02:00 AM
 
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Re: Vince Russo on the lack of pyschology hurting the business

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Originally Posted by MonkasaurusRex View Post
I cannot stress enough how ridiculous it is to absolve performers for not being interesting. Sure creative doesn't do them any favours, but fact of the matter is a lot of these guys are playing the same character they played before coming to WWE. They just aren't interesting. Then on top of that the don't even try to become interesting characters. Shawn Michales was interesting in 1992 & 1995 both are times when WWE was barren creatively and in a culture change, Bret Hart was always one of the most rudimentary "characters" in wrestling yet he was interesting. They are guys that didn't settle for good enough. Guys these days settle and the hardcore fans let them settle. If they tried to be interesting maybe they would succeed even if it is in a car crash manner at least it is there.

Of course character is part and parcel to emotional investment. It's plain as day. None of the guys care nor does creative, because they have all settled for good enough. It's a glaring problem in North American pro wrestling. Until the mentality changes this is what we are stuck with. AJ Styles wouldn't be more interesting with better creative behind him, because he is plying the same AJ Styles he has always played and while he is a wonderful in ring performer especially in this generation he is a boring character and always has been. Nowhere he has been has made any great strides in improving that aspect of his presentation. It's just that there is a mentality of it being good enough. The WWE especially suffers from this because they have been making record profits even with live attendance and TV ratings down. When that bubble bursts it's going to be a catastrophe because the only compelling characters are Nostalgia acts and part time performers who are past their prime.
-Whats the difference between the indies and WWE? Control on the character. On the indies, you have a big say on your character. You know what to do to make yourself interesting. In the E, everything is scripted, micromanaged and morphed into something Mcmahon thinks is marketable. You yourself said, these guys were interesting before the came to the WWE. Now there here, its not like they suddenly lose motivation. They still want to win the main title and be the best that they can be but they know if they push it too much they'll get fucked. Sami Zayn is known to be very passionate and argumentative with agents about his performances so they decided to punish him by protraying him like a geek for it. Jinder Mahal had to resort to bending the rules to inflate his physique. Charlotte wanted to do a moonsault of the goddamn Hell in the cell cage. So tell me again how most of these guys are just resting on their laurels and don't want to improve themselves?

Because trust me they do. These guys don't get this far without having passion or at least an insane amount of talent. But so many suffer due to the micromanagement of the WWE. They know that sometimes, no matter how good you are they will not get pushed. No matter how passionate you are, no matter how hardworking you are, it does not matter shit to Vince unless you're marketable. And if you try to push your ideas too hard, you'll get punished for it. What kind of person would not lose passion and motivation in that kind of work environment? Yet there are still a huge amount of these guy trying to improve themselves and get better. You can say whatever about Jinder, but he wanted this bad and he improved himself. Theres so many people trying to climb the ladder and show everyone how good they can be that get stiffled by creative. When guys in NXT move to the main roster, they usually underperform and get called as overhyped in NXT. No mate, its because NXT is 't under the all seeing eye and control of Vince bloody Mcmahon. Again, whats the difference? Its not the talent, its Vince, the writers and the level of micromanagement.
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 02:03 AM
 
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Re: Vince Russo on the lack of pyschology hurting the business

Wasn't there a time when this guy's (Russo) named was banned or replaced by something else? Can we please go back to it?

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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 02:06 AM
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Re: Vince Russo on the lack of pyschology hurting the business

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Vince Russo on the lack of Psychology in wrestling

When I officially started the business it was 1991 and literally around that time, I remember we did our first chat with AOL. I remember it back in like 1993, and around that time it got exposed to the world that wrestling is a work, itís a television show, none of this is real but like I said, bro, I donít know what happened in the last 5 years, but you have a crew of young talent that have somehow convinced themselves that it is all about the match and we have to go out there and have to do crazy stuff and put ourselves at risk to get the crowd to chant, Ďthis is awesome.í It is the most preposterous thing I have ever heard in my life. Here is what any wrestlersí agenda should be and Sam you can appreciate this: these wrestlers have a shelf life, from a business standpoint they are only going to be able to make money for so long, so what they want to do is they want to try and extend that wrestling life and shelf life as long as they can, because the time is going to come where they are not going to be able to perform anymore in the ring, but yet you have guys in their 20ís and early 30ís that are performing these ridiculous moves that require no psychology and in an instant somebody can break a neck, and I am telling you right now, somebody is going to get paralyzed in the ring doing one of these crazy, unnecessary things where somebody is going to be saying, wait a minute, hold on, we better look at the way these guys are wrestling nowadays.


I totally agree with Russo on this being one of the biggest problems hurting wrestling. Now a days you have everyone doing crazy spot after spot on free tv that has took away the psychology and realism. I keep stressing that ring work and crazy spots do not and has never been a draw in wrestling. Larger than life character has always drawn in viewers. The Hogans, The Pipers, Savage, Flair, Rhodes, Horsemen, Rock, Stone Cold and others are some of the biggest Superstars ever in the business who had the character and personality something these spot after spot let's wrestle like a cruiser weight by doing spots for the sake of it wrestlers are lacking.
Agree with Russo. He surprises me everytime he opens his mouth, one day he will say something that really makes sense and the other day he'll say some awful crap.
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