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post #91 of 2952 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 08:55 AM
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Re: Official Match/DVD/Show Discussion Thread (And Stairs)

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Originally Posted by IT'S VADER TIME View Post
Damn you weren't kidding dude. I decided to give the Bischoff doc a shot last nigh when I was bored and it absolutely blew me away how well done and entertaining it was. I was starting to think WWE had lost their touch with documentary's after the run of crummy ones they've had lately, but man this was GREAT. Probably the best one since the Foley doc.

I thought it showed a different side to Bischoff, and actually it made me respect him a bit more because of how he owned his fuck ups and mistakes like a man and didn't try and make excuses for the role he played in creating the dysfunction in WCW.

So, I second what Cal said, definitely worth a watch.
Thirded.

Definitely worth a watch, it was great.


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post #92 of 2952 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 09:36 AM
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Re: Official Match/DVD/Show Discussion Thread (And Stairs)

Funny how I'm always right, isn't it?

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post #93 of 2952 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 09:41 AM
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Re: Official Match/DVD/Show Discussion Thread (And Stairs)

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Holy cow @ some of the names WWE got to compete in this tournament. Good to see Anthony Nese on their radar. Always felt like he'd make a good fit to their roster.

TAJIRI is obviously the best. Dorada being involved rules. Hope he can get some mileage. Ibushi will probably win. Not that I mind.
I'm going to fucking so hard when Tajiri's first match happens. The last thing I saw from him was that match he had with Finlay several years back and he still obviously had IT, big time. Hoping we get to see him work some Lucha guys, I always enjoyed his matches most when he worked against opponents in that style.

I've been meaning to ask you, and everyone else in here, if they saw the Riccochet vs Will Ospreay match from the NJPW Juniors tournament. I haven't seen it myself yet, but Vader and Cornette trashed it while Austin dedicated a large part of his podcast to praising it. Is it worth watching? Or will it make my head hurt and kill my passion for wrestling?





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post #94 of 2952 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Official Match/DVD/Show Discussion Thread (And Stairs)

ehhhhhh not this topic again. More of an annoyance towards it now being "infamous" than anything else. When it's just a literal butthole indie style match that's been happening for years.

I hated it, but you make your decision all yourself. Will Ospreay is absolute cancer and that's where I basically end my thoughts.

Cornette's bit on it is the best, and most fitting one out there. Ok now I'm done.

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post #95 of 2952 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 01:09 PM
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Re: Official Match/DVD/Show Discussion Thread (And Stairs)

I didn't realize it had been discussed here before, I searched to see if anyone had posted on it and didn't see anything so that's why I asked.

If it's just the same flippy bullshit that's been occurring in wrestling for over a decade now, then I'll gladly pass. I've been running out of shit to watch lately, but id rather spend 25 minutes watching this Terry Gordy/Dr. Death Texas Deathmatch for the 4th time in a month than have to taste bile while watching 2 guys find new and innovative ways to make me feel dead inside. Owens/Ambrose and Ziggler/Owens matches from earlier this year already gave me my fill of watching two guys wrestle like dipshits. I don't need any more of that. Oh well.





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post #96 of 2952 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 01:17 PM
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Re: Official Match/DVD/Show Discussion Thread (And Stairs)

There is a big thread with people moaning about it in Other Wrestling if you're interested. Not seen it myself yet either tbh.



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post #97 of 2952 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 02:07 PM
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Re: Official Match/DVD/Show Discussion Thread (And Stairs)

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Originally Posted by IT'S VADER TIME View Post
I'm going to fucking so hard when Tajiri's first match happens. The last thing I saw from him was that match he had with Finlay several years back and he still obviously had IT, big time. Hoping we get to see him work some Lucha guys, I always enjoyed his matches most when he worked against opponents in that style.

I've been meaning to ask you, and everyone else in here, if they saw the Riccochet vs Will Ospreay match from the NJPW Juniors tournament. I haven't seen it myself yet, but Vader and Cornette trashed it while Austin dedicated a large part of his podcast to praising it. Is it worth watching? Or will it make my head hurt and kill my passion for wrestling?
Wrote about it here, but I'll copy-paste it for the lazy (like me)

Spoiler for thoughts:

People criticising the opening sequence are missing the context of it being wrestling's two hottest high-flyers trying to one-up the other in showmanship. They were ego-driven the entire match. A lot of wrestling starts with flashy yet perfunctory work, this was just an extension of that feeling out process. I also think it's disingenuous to state the match as lacking a drive to win, when the rest of the match was exactly that. I'm not a fan of Ospreay's performance, if but wowed by his athleticism, but Ricochet let a lot of his spots breathe. Fair enough, it got cutesy, but they placed those spots toward the end where bomb-throwing finishing stretches usually lie. I'm not a fan of NJPW's house style for that very reason, and I think that's a problem endemic to a lot more styles than just the cruiserweight one. It seems rather disingenuous to deride these two, and not look at the bigger fault in wrestling, today.

I don't think I'm going to have the energy nor time to unpack that last sentence in comparison to other "generations", but I do agree with the basic principle that wrestling is evolving to bigger and bigger spots at the detriment to its quality. I'd argue, though, that such flaws are, in part, down to the business rapidly expanding and technology offering the ability for any old Tom, Dick & Harry to "become" a "wrestler". These guys existed in the 80s, it's just that to get recognition they had to be in bigger feds with exposure and to do so had to have talent. It stands to reason that wrestling will evolve to gymnastic acts when more and more wrestlers are using spots to get over rather than figuring out how to properly structure a match. Spots don't last, in a vacuum, and continual need to one-up your last hoorah is needed.

While true to bigger feds, and I'd assume most would point to the rapidly changing WWE style, I'd still wager its production in part of a generational/societal move toward being more attention-deficit/hyperactive in our consumption habits rather than a sheer drop in actual talent. There's a "discussion" on post-modernity within wrestling over on Voices of Wrestling, if that narrative is your thing, it isn't mine and I'll cease my conjectures here, thus. I'm merely here to offer reasoning for my praise of the aforementioned match.

I think comparing this match to my enjoy (or lack thereof) for Joshi may be an unfair one, but I'll get my comparison point out of the way, first. Ospreay/Ricochet was more entertaining, and better structured, than the vast majority of Joshi that I've seen. There's a weird dichotomy on other sites where the match is being derided yet praise is continually being bestowed upon Akira Hokuto (who I've found to be one of the more egregious workers within the style). I'm not sure I understand the difference between the two, beyond a bias toward a certain style and, perhaps, a lenience given to certain styles that expect different "wrestling rules/physics". The former is probably most true, and not all styles are created equal. I've touched on finishing stretches being fast-paced, and bomb-throwing AJPW is indicative of that, as is current day NJPW (for a quality comparison), but the problem in the instance of a high-flying match is that to setup the next spot, the breathing room between spots is mitigated beyond, perhaps, what it should be. There are guys who can work the style exceptionally (Rey), but I think it requires a helluva talent to master successfully. Ricochet does a good job, but there's a plateau.

I won't argue that this is a must-see spectacle, ready to grace many match of the year lists, but, for the style, it's a very good, if albeit pop-sugar, match. It's certainly better than quite a number of the juniour matches off of the Best of 2000s Puro poll. Perhaps that's due to the other not aging as well, but time will only tell here. I'm not hazarding this as timeless, it's not exceptional enough, but it feels more complete than the average Dragon Gate spotfest where the structure feels disjointed due to the my-turn/your-turn style they run. Sure, this match had a nefarious no-sell or three, but its parts slotted into the whole and the selling existed where need-be. I'd cheekily say that Ospreay made the obnoxious dueling forearms spot look better than Ishii, Zayn or Nakamura have this year, by simply latching onto Richochet's arm bands and using them to desperately stay afloat amidst the barrage. It was a sweet little moment, in a sequence I otherwise loathe.

I think it was interesting to see Regal defend this match, though I think the implication are obvious (WWE are courting the two), but I think that opens up a possible avenue for Will. I've never been sold on him, and he's still very cartoonishly outlandish here, but the kid has athleticism for days and no doubt would be a fabulous star to mold in the performance centre. He's certainly a better acrobat than Evan Bourne who, lest we forget, was dogging it on RoH shows in 2005/2006 only to "get it" and look like an absolute star a half decade later. Regal/Bourne from a Romania is still one of my favourite WWE house shows, and testament to what development can do to a talent.

All praise aside, lunatic spots and actual psychology (learned psychology of matches evolving as the series progresses) is all to be found in the Dragon Lee vs Kamaitachi feud. It's a pity that their work was quickly latched on to around the FantasticaMania show only to be forgotten so quickly. Ironically, I'd hazard it being due to Ospreay making a name for himself, but no matter. I'll wave the lucha flag all by lonesome, once more.
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post #98 of 2952 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 05:22 PM
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Re: Official Match/DVD/Show Discussion Thread (And Stairs)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rah View Post
Wrote about it here, but I'll copy-paste it for the lazy (like me)

Spoiler for thoughts:

People criticising the opening sequence are missing the context of it being wrestling's two hottest high-flyers trying to one-up the other in showmanship. They were ego-driven the entire match. A lot of wrestling starts with flashy yet perfunctory work, this was just an extension of that feeling out process. I also think it's disingenuous to state the match as lacking a drive to win, when the rest of the match was exactly that. I'm not a fan of Ospreay's performance, if but wowed by his athleticism, but Ricochet let a lot of his spots breathe. Fair enough, it got cutesy, but they placed those spots toward the end where bomb-throwing finishing stretches usually lie. I'm not a fan of NJPW's house style for that very reason, and I think that's a problem endemic to a lot more styles than just the cruiserweight one. It seems rather disingenuous to deride these two, and not look at the bigger fault in wrestling, today.

I don't think I'm going to have the energy nor time to unpack that last sentence in comparison to other "generations", but I do agree with the basic principle that wrestling is evolving to bigger and bigger spots at the detriment to its quality. I'd argue, though, that such flaws are, in part, down to the business rapidly expanding and technology offering the ability for any old Tom, Dick & Harry to "become" a "wrestler". These guys existed in the 80s, it's just that to get recognition they had to be in bigger feds with exposure and to do so had to have talent. It stands to reason that wrestling will evolve to gymnastic acts when more and more wrestlers are using spots to get over rather than figuring out how to properly structure a match. Spots don't last, in a vacuum, and continual need to one-up your last hoorah is needed.

While true to bigger feds, and I'd assume most would point to the rapidly changing WWE style, I'd still wager its production in part of a generational/societal move toward being more attention-deficit/hyperactive in our consumption habits rather than a sheer drop in actual talent. There's a "discussion" on post-modernity within wrestling over on Voices of Wrestling, if that narrative is your thing, it isn't mine and I'll cease my conjectures here, thus. I'm merely here to offer reasoning for my praise of the aforementioned match.

I think comparing this match to my enjoy (or lack thereof) for Joshi may be an unfair one, but I'll get my comparison point out of the way, first. Ospreay/Ricochet was more entertaining, and better structured, than the vast majority of Joshi that I've seen. There's a weird dichotomy on other sites where the match is being derided yet praise is continually being bestowed upon Akira Hokuto (who I've found to be one of the more egregious workers within the style). I'm not sure I understand the difference between the two, beyond a bias toward a certain style and, perhaps, a lenience given to certain styles that expect different "wrestling rules/physics". The former is probably most true, and not all styles are created equal. I've touched on finishing stretches being fast-paced, and bomb-throwing AJPW is indicative of that, as is current day NJPW (for a quality comparison), but the problem in the instance of a high-flying match is that to setup the next spot, the breathing room between spots is mitigated beyond, perhaps, what it should be. There are guys who can work the style exceptionally (Rey), but I think it requires a helluva talent to master successfully. Ricochet does a good job, but there's a plateau.

I won't argue that this is a must-see spectacle, ready to grace many match of the year lists, but, for the style, it's a very good, if albeit pop-sugar, match. It's certainly better than quite a number of the juniour matches off of the Best of 2000s Puro poll. Perhaps that's due to the other not aging as well, but time will only tell here. I'm not hazarding this as timeless, it's not exceptional enough, but it feels more complete than the average Dragon Gate spotfest where the structure feels disjointed due to the my-turn/your-turn style they run. Sure, this match had a nefarious no-sell or three, but its parts slotted into the whole and the selling existed where need-be. I'd cheekily say that Ospreay made the obnoxious dueling forearms spot look better than Ishii, Zayn or Nakamura have this year, by simply latching onto Richochet's arm bands and using them to desperately stay afloat amidst the barrage. It was a sweet little moment, in a sequence I otherwise loathe.

I think it was interesting to see Regal defend this match, though I think the implication are obvious (WWE are courting the two), but I think that opens up a possible avenue for Will. I've never been sold on him, and he's still very cartoonishly outlandish here, but the kid has athleticism for days and no doubt would be a fabulous star to mold in the performance centre. He's certainly a better acrobat than Evan Bourne who, lest we forget, was dogging it on RoH shows in 2005/2006 only to "get it" and look like an absolute star a half decade later. Regal/Bourne from a Romania is still one of my favourite WWE house shows, and testament to what development can do to a talent.

All praise aside, lunatic spots and actual psychology (learned psychology of matches evolving as the series progresses) is all to be found in the Dragon Lee vs Kamaitachi feud. It's a pity that their work was quickly latched on to around the FantasticaMania show only to be forgotten so quickly. Ironically, I'd hazard it being due to Ospreay making a name for himself, but no matter. I'll wave the lucha flag all by lonesome, once more.

First I'd just like to say, your prose is exquisite. Seriously. You know how to turn a phrase my friend, I enjoyed reading that, quite a bit actually. It's funny, one of my pet peeves is when people try to write like you did there, but they don't actually know what the words they are using mean, or don't know how those words should actually be used in a sentence. So when I started reading your review, my bullshit radar went on high alert, I kept looking to see if you actually knew what you were saying or if you just liked the smell of your own farts. Im happy to report when I finished you passed with full marks, you indeed can write.

Thank you for posting that, even though you and I generally dig a lot of the same stuff, I'm afraid this match just doesn't sound like something I'd be into. I've just reached my maximum threshold for fast paced, spot heavy, high flying stunt exhibitions. Even when those matches are done smartly and actually tell a story, I just can't enjoy matches like that anymore. Maybe I'll come around again, maybe I'll find myself in the mood for something like that, but I've just been so inundated with that style of work these last few years that I can't enjoy them as the popcorn/Hollywood blockbuster/cream puff type match they are intended to be.





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post #99 of 2952 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 10:08 AM
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Re: Official Match/DVD/Show Discussion Thread (And Stairs)















What did you guys think of Bad Blood 2003? It took place from the Compaq Center in Houston, Texas.

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post #100 of 2952 (permalink) Old 06-17-2016, 10:25 AM
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Re: Official Match/DVD/Show Discussion Thread (And Stairs)

This is what I thought of Bad Blood 2003. And lets never speak of it again. http://wrestlingview.co.uk/?p=1635

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