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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-21-2016, 11:02 AM
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Re: The WWE and star making

I agree OP. To expand upon what you said about UFC, I always find it funny when wrestling marks consider the likes of Rollins, Reigns, Ambrose, New Day, Cesaro, Owens, Ziggler, to be "stars".

I have some friends that detest UFC and WWE equally, and they could easily name you Rousey, McGregor, Lesnar, and a few "other" names when they get big wins, such as Holm/Tate/Nate Diaz recently. IE - Mainly current names

Take WWE, and they would name you Cena, Undertaker, Jericho and Lesnar, but not before saying "Triple H?" "Stone Cold?" "The Rock?" "Hulk Hogan?". WWE has no mainstream exposure so it's only people that were over during times of mainstream exposure that are remembered in the minds of the masses.

WWE is at it's worst when appeasing to wrestling marks and instead should focus on appealing to the unwashed masses with violence, sex, and rock and roll. That's why I started watching.

There are far too many other companies out there that do "wrestling" far better than WWE do it. WWE should be about pushing the envelope, and living on the edge of censorship, however, it has turned into a Conservative Gentleman's and Gentlewoman's club.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-21-2016, 11:11 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The WWE and star making

Originally Posted by Flash Funk View Post
Well in 2016 the term 'hottest free agent' is like saying 'tallest midget' but Ill start you off with Ric fucking Flair, arguably the GOAT. In fact apart from maybe Hogan in WCW (which failed anyway in his inital run) I cant think of any big free agents not doing a job on ppv in their first six months in a new company, I can think of plenty of wrestlers with much more fame and name recognition than AJ Styles that didnt headline PPVs in their first few months though.

AJ Styles is a great worker with limited mic skills and little to no character, the fact hes headlining WWE shows blows my mind, the fact people think hes getting buried by headlining WWE shows well I just I dont even know what to say. Totally undermines your whole point.
Flair never really went to a "new company" though. You're referring to the territory days where Flair was the most well known heel in all of wrestling, he made money for people BECAUSE HE LOST. That's kind of different than signing a guy to be a face main eventer and then jobbing him out in less than 6 months, don't you think?

But hey, fair point about "hottest free agent in 2016". I don't disagree with some of what you said, but I also think you owe it to your investment to protect him and not immediately make him an enhancement talent for your mannequin of a top guy.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-21-2016, 11:41 AM
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Re: The WWE and star making

There's no longer a ladder or tiers in wrestling. You used to be able to differentiate between a jobber, a lower card guy, a midcard guy, an uppercard guy, and a main event guy. You can't anymore. How are talents supposed to "go over" if they are all on the same level?

You still have main event level protected guys: John Cena, Brock Lesnar, The Undertaker, Triple H, and Roman Reigns now (which is a good thing, to an extent.)

But once you get past those guys, pretty much everyone is on the same level, and it's because of 50/50 booking. Is Ziggler an upper card guy? Not really, because he'll go through a series of losses for like three months at a time. But yet they use him to "put over" guys like Tyler Breeze. Well, how is he going over, exactly? Ziggler loses all the time. Rusev was pushed for months on end beating midcard guys like Henry, Big Show, Sheamus, and it did nothing for him, because in the end, he lost to a main eventer. He was never put over. He didn't beat Roman Reigns. (I'm referring to pins/submissions, not count outs, DQs, etc.) He didn't beat John Cena clean.

Dean Ambrose, for a long period of time, lost match after match after match. That eventually got better, but you know that he'll never beat any of the top five guys, and what do you know? He has lost clean to Brock Lesnar. He has lost clean to Roman Reigns. And he's not even a heel.

Jobbers and lower card guys are the same thing now. You can't distinguish a midcarder with an upper carder anymore. One minute, they are winning, the next, they're losing a stretch of matches. Nobody goes over. 50/50 booking.

It's not meaningful to defeat Dolph Ziggler. It's not meaningful to defeat Sheamus. It's not meaningful to defeat Alberto Del Rio. Remember Kalisto "going over" Del Rio and becoming US champ? Well, he's just going to feud with Ryback now on the pre-show. He certainly went over, didn't he? Look at that push.

Defeating John Cena is a huge deal. Kevin Owens beat him clean in his debut. That's fucking going over. But there's nowhere to go but down at that point. The only guys on the roster that can "put over" guys are John Cena, Roman Reigns, Triple H (who is semi-retired), Brock Lesnar (who isn't going to lose yet to anybody), and The Undertaker (who generally wrestles once a year.)

You push Bray Wyatt to matter... but he loses to all those guys. So he doesn't fucking matter, and nobody cares anymore. All bark and no bite.

They need to adjust the booking from top to bottom. That way, talents actually rise to the top of the ladder. Guys shouldn't have to defeat The Elite 5 in order to go over, but as it stands... they are the only ones who even matter.

tl;dr Think of Mortal Kombat arcade mode.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-21-2016, 11:48 AM
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Re: The WWE and star making

Good post. I wish they'd learn that if someone gets over, there are other way to go than cutting his/her legs off right away.

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-21-2016, 04:29 PM
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Re: The WWE and star making

Alot of great points OP though it's never truly changed when it comes to ME booking take Hogan's era and how long he dominated Wrestling which hadn't been repeated until Cena and now the current WWEWHC is taking the same route. Of all the wrestlers since the AE the only one who naturally 'broke the ceiling' was Bryan and to a much lesser level because of the losses - Bray. New Day also stuck with their Gimmick and eventually got fan reaction after months of heat.
Enhancement wrestlers like Ambrose, Lynch, Zayn and even Cesaro will always be kept AT their ceiling because they have fan popularity.

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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-21-2016, 04:47 PM
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Re: The WWE and star making

I would say that one of the issues is that they're too focused on pigeonholing performers into roles for the sake of evening out the roster, when they should be focused on doing what's best for the individual performers.

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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-21-2016, 06:15 PM
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It's not even about keeping the status quo. Charlotte has looked really good. A little too good. So they had Paige who has not been on TV defeat her. After Paige goes straight back to jobbing.
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