Seth Rollins vs. "The Fiend" Bray Wyatt (Universal Championship: Hell in a Cell Match) - Hell in a Cell - Page 10 - Wrestling Forum: WWE, AEW, New Japan, Indy Wrestling, Women of Wrestling Forums

View Poll Results: Who Walks Out of Hell in a Cell as the Universal Champion?
Seth Rollins 29 42.65%
Bray Wyatt 39 57.35%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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post #91 of 545 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 09:08 AM
 
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Don't agree that Wyatt should, deserves, or needs to win. He's got to do more than attack with the lights off using 1 move with this character before they give him the belt. It's nowhere near as entertaining as people make it out to be and his corny little kid's show and the belt don't mesh well either..

Braun should cost him the match.
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post #92 of 545 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 09:10 AM
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Re: Seth Rollins vs. "The Fiend" Bray Wyatt (Universal Championship: Hell in a Cell Match) - Hell in a Cell

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Originally Posted by gillbergisback View Post
Don't agree that Wyatt should, deserves, or needs to win. He's got to do more than attack with the lights off using 1 move with this character before they give him the belt. It's nowhere near as entertaining as people make it out to be and his corny little kid's show and the belt don't mesh well either..

Braun should cost him the match.
Well, as long as people are making it out to be more entertaining than it is, which means it's over and it's working, it really doesn't matter what you think about it.



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post #93 of 545 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by gillbergisback View Post
Don't agree that Wyatt should, deserves, or needs to win. He's got to do more than attack with the lights off using 1 move with this character before they give him the belt. It's nowhere near as entertaining as people make it out to be and his corny little kid's show and the belt don't mesh well either..

Braun should cost him the match.
It's rushed definitely I would have had Bray beat Braun at HIAC then win the belt at Survivor Series.

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post #94 of 545 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 09:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by gillbergisback View Post
Don't agree that Wyatt should, deserves, or needs to win. He's got to do more than attack with the lights off using 1 move with this character before they give him the belt. It's nowhere near as entertaining as people make it out to be and his corny little kid's show and the belt don't mesh well either..

Braun should cost him the match.
Well, as long as people are making it out to be more entertaining than it is, which means it's over and it's working, it really doesn't matter what you think about it. <img src="https://www.wrestlingforum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smilie" class="inlineimg" />
People say that and then the ratings come out and people quickly realize that just because you talk sh doesn't mean you know sh.

Not referring to Bray there just saying basing things off the crowd/ internet is misleading because that just means you're catering to the base and not necessarily towards growth.

Last edited by gillbergisback; 09-24-2019 at 09:22 AM.
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post #95 of 545 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 09:34 AM
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Re: Seth Rollins vs. "The Fiend" Bray Wyatt (Universal Championship: Hell in a Cell Match) - Hell in a Cell

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Originally Posted by gillbergisback View Post
People say that and then the ratings come out and people quickly realize that just because you talk sh doesn't mean you know sh.

Not referring to Bray there just saying basing things off the crowd/ internet is misleading because that just means you're catering to the base and not necessarily towards growth.
I'm not basing it SOLELY on crowd reaction. Smarks love to cheer things. I'm basing it off of 30 fucking years of experience watching wrestling and knowing what WORKS and what doesn't.

Seth Rollins, Brock Lesnar, Roman Reigns, AJ Styles, Becky Lynch, Charlotte, Daniel Bryan and Kofi Kingston are not inspiring "growth". What do they all have in common? They're all people who either aren't charismatic, or in Becky and Bryans case, moderately so at best, none of them can talk, none of them have a character except for Daniel Bryans gimmick being "I love vegetables". Every single one of them is pushed on two factors, either look, or in ring ability, the two LEAST important factors in wrestling. All of a sudden you have a character in Bray Wyatt who's RED HOT, now what's the difference between him and the other 8 people the product has been centered around for the last several years (or in Kofis case, one)? The difference is, he's a super charismatic, super creative guy with a CHARACTER, who can TALK. A lot. Mick Foley and Dusty Rhodes, like him, were big fat, blubbering, ugly piles of cellulite, and compare their legacy on the business to this pile of GEEKS.

Of course the ratings aren't gonna change if you give Bray Wyatt the title, because you have to EARN the trust of the audience back. You gotta give him like a good YEAR of a sustained, top level push to undo all the damage you've done by focusing so much time and effort on these absolute wastes of wrestlers whos contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on. If you LET Bray Wyatt fix the product, he'll fix the product. If you don't, then it's gonna continue the way it is but there's a track record in history of the character, charismatic, talky people always outshining the geeks who get pushed solely on looks and workrate.



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post #96 of 545 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 10:08 AM
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Re: Seth Rollins vs. "The Fiend" Bray Wyatt (Universal Championship: Hell in a Cell Match) - Hell in a Cell

Adding Braun will make me lose all interest. At least Bray has a chance for the swerve if its 1v1, but if Braun is added then fuck off.




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post #97 of 545 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 10:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gillbergisback View Post
People say that and then the ratings come out and people quickly realize that just because you talk sh doesn't mean you know sh.

Not referring to Bray there just saying basing things off the crowd/ internet is misleading because that just means you're catering to the base and not necessarily towards growth.
I'm not basing it SOLELY on crowd reaction. Smarks love to cheer things. I'm basing it off of 30 fucking years of experience watching wrestling and knowing what WORKS and what doesn't.

Seth Rollins, Brock Lesnar, Roman Reigns, AJ Styles, Becky Lynch, Charlotte, Daniel Bryan and Kofi Kingston are not inspiring "growth". What do they all have in common? They're all people who either aren't charismatic, or in Becky and Bryans case, moderately so at best, none of them can talk, none of them have a character except for Daniel Bryans gimmick being "I love vegetables". Every single one of them is pushed on two factors, either look, or in ring ability, the two LEAST important factors in wrestling. All of a sudden you have a character in Bray Wyatt who's RED HOT, now what's the difference between him and the other 8 people the product has been centered around for the last several years (or in Kofis case, one)? The difference is, he's a super charismatic, super creative guy with a CHARACTER, who can TALK. A lot. Mick Foley and Dusty Rhodes, like him, were big fat, blubbering, ugly piles of cellulite, and compare their legacy on the business to this pile of GEEKS.

Of course the ratings aren't gonna change if you give Bray Wyatt the title, because you have to EARN the trust of the audience back. You gotta give him like a good YEAR of a sustained, top level push to undo all the damage you've done by focusing so much time and effort on these absolute wastes of wrestlers whos contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on. If you LET Bray Wyatt fix the product, he'll fix the product. If you don't, then it's gonna continue the way it is but there's a track record in history of the character, charismatic, talky people always outshining the geeks who get pushed solely on looks and workrate.
If you think the scary heel has to win and be built up as an unstoppable juggarnaut while b'ing out all of the faces then you may of watched wrestling for 30 years but not the WWE. But the companies that followed your formula are in the trash can so maybe you don't know as much as you think you know. Which was my point there. WWE can listen to it's fans but if it's fans want to push someone just because he was their flea circus hero what's the end result? It's not always growth.

And I'm not saying that towards Bray or any wrestler in particular. There's guys like Punk, Bryan who were worthy of pushes and Bray may be there eventually but as of now his character is just too green to run with the belt.

I think WWE has 2 options here. 1). Turn Seth. They've already made him into a b so go out all of the way. Similar to Michaels v Taker in 97. 2). Have Bray cost the Fiend the match. But that's just my opinion and I'm not claiming it's any better than anyone elses.
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post #98 of 545 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 10:57 AM
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Re: Seth Rollins vs. "The Fiend" Bray Wyatt (Universal Championship: Hell in a Cell Match) - Hell in a Cell

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Originally Posted by gillbergisback View Post
If you think the scary heel has to win and be built up as an unstoppable juggarnaut while b'ing out all of the faces then you may of watched wrestling for 30 years but not the WWE. But the companies that followed your formula are in the trash can so maybe you don't know as much as you think you know. Which was my point there. WWE can listen to it's fans but if it's fans want to push someone just because he was their flea circus hero what's the end result? It's not always growth.

And I'm not saying that towards Bray or any wrestler in particular. There's guys like Punk, Bryan who were worthy of pushes and Bray may be there eventually but as of now his character is just too green to run with the belt.

I think WWE has 2 options here. 1). Turn Seth. They've already made him into a b so go out all of the way. Similar to Michaels v Taker in 97. 2). Have Bray cost the Fiend the match. But that's just my opinion and I'm not claiming it's any better than anyone elses.
I mean you literally just DID claim your opinion was better than mine 2 paragraphs ago.....

I have watched WWE for that long, I don't watch other promotions. Building up a strong, main event heel, albeit not always a monster, but fine, and then building up a babyface beating them is something they've always done. Hell, it's what they did for the last year. The only difference between Brock and Bray is that people actually want to see Bray and he doesn't make people want to disconnect from the product, and for him to leave, because he hasn't been marginalized by their booking in the sense that he's not portrayed as a guy who hates pro wrestling, and he's not a fucking chore to watch who stands around doing nothing in the ring, plus has his manager say his entire diatribe for him because he can't get a point over himself.

I'm not saying that Bray Wyatt is the person you build the company around for the next 5 years, I'm saying you give him a strong run until SummerSlam 2018 to SummerSlam 2019, you give him a year to run through all the opponents who are tired, or stale, or just aren't world champion level, and you have him repair the damage that's been done by pushing a bunch of uncharismatic geeks, and then you re-build a babyface like Owens, who would be the best guy for it because of his natural charisma, mic skills, and relatability to the audience, elsewise you sign somebody with those capabilities and put him over - hell, get CM Punk on the phone, he's open to it now, and that guy beats Bray and that's the babyface who becomes your big deal babyface. Bray Wyatt is never going to perpetually be your flag bearer but he NEEDS title runs now and again and he NEEDS to be your big obstacle so that when he does lose, it means something and it makes a star.

This character is not "too green" to win the belt, and if he is, what does that say about everyone on the roster who's getting their ass kicked by this guy who's "too green" to win the belt, especially the champion who's crying and screaming in the corner in fear of this guy. Your top babyface is a pussy. That's a character, performer aside, and the performer who's playing him, even booked well is not a main eventer, that's a character who's not ready to be the champion. It's not the most over guy on the show, he's ready. Bray Wyatt is also an established act who everybody is familiar with, it's just a fresh coat of paint and it's their responsibility to have that character win the title and not slash their key into the paint job.



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post #99 of 545 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 11:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gillbergisback View Post
If you think the scary heel has to win and be built up as an unstoppable juggarnaut while b'ing out all of the faces then you may of watched wrestling for 30 years but not the WWE. But the companies that followed your formula are in the trash can so maybe you don't know as much as you think you know. Which was my point there. WWE can listen to it's fans but if it's fans want to push someone just because he was their flea circus hero what's the end result? It's not always growth.

And I'm not saying that towards Bray or any wrestler in particular. There's guys like Punk, Bryan who were worthy of pushes and Bray may be there eventually but as of now his character is just too green to run with the belt.

I think WWE has 2 options here. 1). Turn Seth. They've already made him into a b so go out all of the way. Similar to Michaels v Taker in 97. 2). Have Bray cost the Fiend the match. But that's just my opinion and I'm not claiming it's any better than anyone elses.
I mean you literally just DID claim your opinion was better than mine 2 paragraphs ago.....

I have watched WWE for that long, I don't watch other promotions. Building up a strong, main event heel, albeit not always a monster, but fine, and then building up a babyface beating them is something they've always done. Hell, it's what they did for the last year. The only difference between Brock and Bray is that people actually want to see Bray and he doesn't make people want to disconnect from the product, and for him to leave, because he hasn't been marginalized by their booking in the sense that he's not portrayed as a guy who hates pro wrestling, and he's not a fucking chore to watch who stands around doing nothing in the ring, plus has his manager say his entire diatribe for him because he can't get a point over himself.

I'm not saying that Bray Wyatt is the person you build the company around for the next 5 years, I'm saying you give him a strong run until SummerSlam 2018 to SummerSlam 2019, you give him a year to run through all the opponents who are tired, or stale, or just aren't world champion level, and you have him repair the damage that's been done by pushing a bunch of uncharismatic geeks, and then you re-build a babyface like Owens, who would be the best guy for it because of his natural charisma, mic skills, and relatability to the audience, elsewise you sign somebody with those capabilities and put him over - hell, get CM Punk on the phone, he's open to it now, and that guy beats Bray and that's the babyface who becomes your big deal babyface. Bray Wyatt is never going to perpetually be your flag bearer but he NEEDS title runs now and again and he NEEDS to be your big obstacle so that when he does lose, it means something and it makes a star.

This character is not "too green" to win the belt, and if he is, what does that say about everyone on the roster who's getting their ass kicked by this guy who's "too green" to win the belt, especially the champion who's crying and screaming in the corner in fear of this guy. Your top babyface is a pussy. That's a character, performer aside, and the performer who's playing him, even booked well is not a main eventer, that's a character who's not ready to be the champion. It's not the most over guy on the show, he's ready. Bray Wyatt is also an established act who everybody is familiar with, it's just a fresh coat of paint and it's their responsibility to have that character win the title and not slash their key into the paint job.
Your point to me essentially was this is what the fans want so deal with it. I didn't say my view is better just pointed out that fan views aren't always best for business and WWE routinely ignores them and sometimes for good reasons. They got their own model for success. I don't aleays agree qith it but here I'd agree with them if Bray falls short of winning the belt.

As a wrestler he's not green but his current character is green as Hell. Heels don't have 100% strong booking in the WWE. Even Lesnar was jobbing to Cena, HHH, Taker. Until Bray has some 50/50 feuds under his belt, until he's not a 1 note attacking people in the dark and that's it I don't see how you can run with him as champ.

And your point on Rollins is why I brought up Rollins retaining via heel turn. I agree they b'd him out to the point where he's not even credible as a face champ. Only one way to take that and WWF has done something pretty similar with Taker and Michaels. Albeit in a much better fashion. Michaels wasn't ever screaming like a girl but he was afraid of Taker and that led him to recruiting help to beat him.

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post #100 of 545 (permalink) Old 09-24-2019, 12:11 PM
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Re: Seth Rollins vs. "The Fiend" Bray Wyatt (Universal Championship: Hell in a Cell Match) - Hell in a Cell

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Originally Posted by gillbergisback View Post
As a wrestler he's not green but his current character is green as Hell. Heels don't have 100% strong booking in the WWE. Even Lesnar was jobbing to Cena, HHH, Taker. Until Bray has some 50/50 feuds under his belt, until he's not a 1 note attacking people in the dark and that's it I don't see how you can run with him as champ.
So basically your entire argument is that we have to job him out and make him look less dominant and less special and make him less over and THEN he can win the title when he's not as strong, because that's SOMEHOW how you get maximum effectiveness out of a character.

Quote:
And your point on Rollins is why I brought up Rollins retaining via heel turn. I agree they b'd him out to the point where he's not even credible as a face champ. Only one way to take that and WWF has done something pretty similar with Taker and Michaels. Albeit in a much better fashion. Michaels wasn't ever screaming like a girl but he was afraid of Taker and that led him to recruiting help to beat him.
So, what, you're gonna turn THE FIEND babyface?

Your heel champion shouldn't be a crying child either. A cowardly heel is one thing, but a guy who's openly sobbing in the corner is not a credible champion, face or heel.



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