FIVE COUNT: Five Lessons for WWE to learn from a fan who is done watching these SmackDown PPVs - Wrestling Forum: WWE, AEW, New Japan, Indy Wrestling, Women of Wrestling Forums

  • 5 Post By seabs
  • 2 Post By Headliner
  • 2 Post By seabs
  • 3 Post By CGS
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-30-2017, 11:30 AM Thread Starter
seabs's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: ----->
Posts: 32,163
Points: 14,332
FIVE COUNT: Five Lessons for WWE to learn from a fan who is done watching these SmackDown PPVs

Battleground was a breaking point for me as a fan. From this point onwards, Iím breaking my usual routine when it comes to watching WWEís PPVs. Iím from the UK so Iím not staying up till 4 a.m. in the morning to watch a WWE show. I stay away from anything wrestling-related to avoid results and watch the show the next day after work. That had been my routine, probably dating back to around 2002 or 2003 on a monthly basis. I never missed one. They were appointment viewing.

Iíll never forget the sheer heartbreak at waking up the morning after WrestleMania 20, no school to have to get through, then setting up the VHS tape only to find that I hadnít rewound the tape and it only recorded the first few minutes at the end of the tape. Or the time when I was so excited all day at school to get home and watch the 2006 Royal Rumble to see who won and then as I was coming out of school I overheard some kids talking about Rey Mysterio winning the Rumble. My legs almost stopped working such was the pain. Iím done with that routine now. From now on, Iím not watching these PPVs in full. Iím just going to cherry pick the matches that I want to watch and then only watch anything else if it gets rave reviews.

So I was watching Battleground and I got up to the A.J. Styles vs. Kevin Owens match and, after that, I was done. I started thinking to myself, why am I watching this show? Out of some form of blind loyalty? To what? To whom? So I can turn around and agree with other people about how we all wished we didnít spend over 30 minutes of our life on that Punjabi Prison mess? So I just turned it off and watched something else.

And thatís what Iím going to do with these shows from now on. If Iím not bothered about watching a match I just wonít. Iíll skip it until I get to something that I do want to watch. And if thereís nothing on the show that I really want to watch, or what I do want to watch is a foregone conclusion as far as the result goes, Iíll just read the results beforehand, check out some reviews of the show, and let them dictate how much of the show I see. As a result Iíll have so much more time to spend watching something else. Thereís so much good wrestling to watch either from the present era or from previous eras, why are we all sitting through a 28 minute Randy Orton vs. Jinder Mahal match? Did we all have some warped perception of reality and expect it to be good?

When it comes to Summerslam Iíll definitely watch the Universal Title match unspoiled because that ticks both the boxes for what I want from a match in 2017: Potential to be a great match without a foregone conclusion. As for everything else? Iíve sat through my last below-average Jinder Mahal match. Natalya vs. Naomi sure isnít worthy of my time. Another New Day vs. Usos match should be good. Kevin Owens matches do nothing for me anymore so heís on the skip pile. Whatever trash Bray Wyatt is involved in goes in the bin. Same for Dean Ambrose. Big Cass vs. Big Show can join them. Bayley vs. Alexa and Neville vs. Tozawa Iíll probably check out because I like all four acts, but I have no hopes for them being memorable matches.

So with all of that said, what are the reasons why Iíve tapped out to WWEís stranglehold and what can they learn from it? These are all primarily focused on the Smackdown side of things, but you can apply a lot of the points made to the Raw half too. The Raw PPVs at least benefit from a much better roster of talent that gets used to its full potential. Watching guys such as Roman Reigns, Samoa Joe, Braun Strowman, Sasha Banks, and Cesaro in good matches with crap finishes that donít mean anything is at least better than watching Jinder Mahal, Randy Orton, Naomi, and Lana in crap matches with crap finishes that donít mean anything.

(1) Nothing Matters

Thereís just nothing to get invested in as a fan because nothing matters. There are no journeys that wrestlers go on that we as fans get to tag along with. Thereís no natural progression in terms of character developments from one key event to the next. The outcomes of the matches donít even matter in the slightest because who gets pushed coming out of the next show may as well be drawn out of a hat. Thereís no ďoh this guy is picking up some momentum letís see where this goes.Ē Thereís no ďoh this guy is improving before my very eyes letís see where he goes from here.Ē Thereís no ďoh that was a big win for so and so, I bet that assures them of a bigger match on the next card.Ē Absolutely nothing that happens on these shows matters.

Aiden English beat Tye Dillinger. So? Aiden English still wonít mean anything and it just ensures that Tye Dillinger wonít mean anything either. The New Day won the tag belts. Hot match but the title change doesnít mean anything. The Usos had their turn holding the belts and now itís New Dayís turn again. When their turn is over itíll be someone elseís turn. Being a champion doesnít mean anything when everyone gets to be a champion. Natayla won the number one contendership match. I guess itís her turn to be in the title match, just like it will soon be Carmellaís turn, and in time Charlotte and Becky will each get their turn as well. The same goes for A.J. vs Owens. Thereís no equity in any of the belts to provide any sort of rub to whoever holds them.

Nakamura and Corbin was the epitome of nothing matters. We sit through 12 minutes of bearhugs and terrible striking for the old the heel doesnít care about losing the match finish. Oh, and we got the match two days later with an actual finish. Just to make us feel even more embarrassed for watching this show. How are we supposed to get invested in these matches if we donít trust there to be a decisive finish where something is achieved?

Cena beat Rusev. In fairness, Cena is a rare case of being an actual attraction for WWE and he should be losing very sparingly, even at this stage of his career. Plus Rusev isnít in for a big push right now with Jinder on top. But still, it didnít really matter a great deal, it was just a placeholder program before Cena likely works with Jinder at Summerslam. Sami Zayn beating Mike Kanellis falls under the same line as Aiden English beating Tye Dillinger. Theyíll trade wins and none of them will mean anything to the future of either guy.

And finally Jinder retained the title but it doesnít mean anything because nobody views him as being a champion or even one of the top guys in the company. Heís not a champion, heís just a guy holding a prop. He never picks up a decisive win where heís the better guy so we as viewers keep having to sit through all the unimpressive indecisive finishes.

So if nothing that happens on these shows matters then why should I care? Why should I even watch? For match quality? Itís not like the shows are producing these killer matches that make up for the relevant flaws of irrelevancy. Getting a title shot doesnít make you special when everyone gets a turn at some point. Being a champion doesnít mean anything when thereís no equity in any of the belts. Winning a match in the midcard doesnít mean anything because the concept of momentum and working your way up the card isnít there. Acts just suddenly get pushes out of nowhere because someone decides so and it has to happen all in a matter of weeks. So whatís the hook for watching these shows?

(2) What Are These Garbage Finishes Building To?

Remember how a rivalry used to start off with a regular match and then the intensity and the hatred would grow and youíd build towards them blowing the feud off in a big gimmick match where you let them loose on each other in an environment that allows them to kick the violence up to another gear. Remember when youíd get excited because a Hell In A Cell Match was announced. Remember finding out there was going to be a Street Fight and just assuming it would enhance the quality of the match.

Thereís none of that anymore. In fact getting a gimmick added to your match pretty much guarantees a worse match than you would have had working under traditional rules. Even the marquee gimmick matches such as Hell In A Cell, Last Man Standing, or Elimination Chamber donít get anyone excited anymore. And what do these rivalries build to now? Games of strategy. Yaaaaaay!

I am so done with these garbage gimmick matches that are more like someone competing on Ninja Warrior than in a professional wrestling match. And weíve had so many of them in the last few months. Thereís been Bayley and Alexa fighting to get a stick off a pole. Thereís been The Hardys and Sheamus & Cesaro playing a moronically played game of escape the cage. Weíve had Roman Reigns and Braun Strowman trying to place the other into a vehicle. And now we get John Cena and Rusev trying to complete an obstacle course ending with a flag planting and Randy Orton and Jinder Mahal playing a more advanced version of the game The Hardys and Sheamus & Cesaro were playing the other month.

And every single one of them is just so insulting to anyone watching with their brain switched on. I get that wrestling relies a lot on the suspension of disbelief. The irish whip is silly but we can put up with it because itís a means to an end. Thereís no positives from the stupidly contrived spots in these matches. Iím just begging for someone to make a total mockery of them and in a cage match as soon as the match starts just run straight up the cage and down the other side and win. I mean itís not like theyíre wrestling matches where you have to wrestle. All you need to do is escape.

Gimmick matches should be a significant drawing card. You should be able to announce a Cage Match and see a significant uptake in anticipation for the show. But that only works if you make them mean something and you ensure they add some sort of added value to the match. A feud leading to a gimmick match doesnít ensure a drastically different style of match and more importantly, it doesnít ensure that the viewers get a decisive outcome. Nowadays thereís a stupid out for every big match so none of the finishes, even in a gimmick match, mean anything. You do a Cage Match and thereís still interference 100% of the time. You do a No DQ Match and it just enables them to have someone interfere and render the match and the finish meaningless. They do a Hell In A Cell Match nowadays and itís not something thatís usually all that great of a match.

So when Iím sitting through a garbage finish to the opening match of a program like Nakamura vs Corbin or The New Day vs The Usos last month, why am I just accepting of the garbage non-finishes? Because they wonít lead to anything worthwhile. Theyíll just lead to another garbage finish in a different context or if weíre a lucky, a convoluted obstacle course challenge.

(3) A Lack of Talent

Thereís just so few real quality acts on the Smackdown roster right now. If we quickly run through the card it will illustrate this problem.

Aiden English is an undercard comedy act. Itís a role that all rosters should have somebody occupying, but unfortunately WWE have no idea how to effectively use an act like that and even if they did itís not an act thatís drawing you into a show. Tye Dillinger isnít someone you rely on to have memorable matches and hot programs. Heís a role player that should be used to get other people over. Which again, is a position on the roster that should be filled but none one thatís getting people excited about the show.

The New Day and The Usos are obvious talents but what on earth do they both do afterwards? Baron Corbin has something but the reality is that they havenít found a way of getting him genuinely over yet or a way of working an entertaining match around his strengths. Nakamura still hasnít produced anything good. That A.J. Styles guy is kinda good. I donít need to see Kevin Owens wrestle anymore but Iím not going to pretend that heís not an attraction. Rusev is a strong talent and Cena is Cena. Sami Zayn is obviously great but heís never doing anything important. I donít agree with people that say that Randy has been unmotivated during the Jinder program but the reality is that Orton isnít someone who naturally gets you excited about what theyíre doing. And then thereís Jinder Mahal working long main event matchesÖ

And as for the women. They have a very serious issue with talent. Iím all for the women being given more time to showcase their talents but only if they have talent. The women being featured more isnít a good thing if the women are Naomi, Carmella, Tamina and Lana. The reality is that Tamina and Lana just arenít at all good and nobody needs to see them working extended matches, especially when Charlotte and Becky are being used as glorified background characters. Which leads into my next pointÖ

(4) The Best Talent Playing Second Fiddle

Itís one thing when thereís not a whole lot of talent on the show but itís something else entirely when what good talent you do have are playing second fiddle, not even to average performers but to bad ones.

Charlotte has been on Smackdown for four months now and I canít name one significant thing that sheís done. She came over and got attacked by heels so suddenly she was a babyface and we were supposed to root for her because she got attacked by the other bad guys. Okay then. Maybe it would have had a chance if it was the catalyst into her becoming the face of the division but it was the catalyst for what? Getting Natalya, Carmella and Tamina over? Even if sheís not going to be the focal point of the division you can still at least be doing something significant with one of the best talents WWE had last year, male or female. Instead her run on Smackdown has amounted to just being a body in two disappointing ladder matches and a random match on Smackdown with Naomi and another with Becky.

Beckyís in the same boat too. I donít think sheís a super talent in the sense that she still wrestles to the level of her opponent but sheís a rare case of being a babyface who is actually liked by the vast majority of the audience. Yet sheís spent the last year doing much of nothing other than putting over Alexa Bliss in forgettable matches. Meanwhile Naomi, Carmella, Tamina and Lana who all still canít put together a respectable match get featured more than the two acts who last year were one of the most effective heels in Charlotte and one of the most effective babyfaces in Becky that WWE had.

And then at the top of the card you have Jinder Mahal. Everything that has needed to be said about Jinderís push has been said so I wonít say anything more about it here. Jinder being in lengthy featured matches wouldnít be half as bad if a) the rest of the show was really hot and b) he wasnít taking that spot away from much more deserving acts. But when youíve got a product that is struggling and instead of making use of the talents of acts like Charlotte, Becky Lynch, Sami Zayn and Chad Gable, the show is cluttered up with lengthy promos and matches from Jinder Mahal and Lana, it just compounds an existing problem even further.

If this was 2000 and the whole show was hot and they tried something like this Jinder Mahal push it would still be bad but it wouldnít be having half the damage on the show as it is now because the positives on the show would be far outweighing the negatives. Instead weíre currently faced with a show where the negatives produced from subpar performers are far outweighing any of the positives coming from the rest of the show.

(5) Too Many Shows

WWE has had issues with their product for years now. All these problems that Iíve brought up since I started this column arenít new things that have suddenly popped up. Theyíve been around for years. And yes thereís a breaking point for everyone that often takes a long period of time to reach, especially if youíre really a fan of something and you have been for a long period of time. The sheer volume of these shows however is going to be the finishing blow for a lot of fans who are on their last legs with the current product.

Itís as if youíre in a relationship and you know the hopes for the future of it arenít great for reasons a, b, and c. But youíve been together for a long time and deep down you want it to work. You remember the good times, get all nostalgic, and talk yourself into believing that theyíll come around again. Itís just a bad patch, things will get better if you stick it out. And then you take a holiday together and instead of just spending time with each other at the weekend and bit at night, youíre spending every minute of every day with one another. Suddenly, the little things that have always annoyed you just a little make you feel like punching a wall. The little quirks they do that make you roll your eyes suddenly make you want to scream, and in no time at all you just canít take it anymore because itís every single day. Thereís no break where you get to go to work or spend a night out with your mates instead.

And thatís what these WWE PPVs are starting to feel like. Every two to three weeks the same constant disappointment and annoyance until eventually you do what Iíve done and you sit down and think to yourself, ďWhy am I doing this to myselfĒ This isnít good for me. I could be spending my time on something more enjoyable.Ē

If the shows were still monthly, I could maybe put up with them. But theyíre like every other week as of late and the same pattern will kick in again after Summerslam and itís just too much to take of something that you just donít enjoy. Thereís only so many head shots you can take before you go down for the count and when it comes to these Smackdown shows, Iím lying dead on the mat at a nine count with no hopes of getting up.

So barring content that really grabs my attention, Iím out. Iíve taken enough punishment in this abusive one-sided relationship. Iím going to stand up for myself and say enough is enough. Those two to three hours every other week Iím giving back to myself. Thatís time that I can spend watching something better. Maybe Iíll watch some more Roddy Piper promos. Maybe Iíll watch some more amazing discoveries on Maybe Iíll decide itís time I watched more Lou Thesz matches to determine how good of a worker he was. I donít know how Iíll spend it, but I can pretty much guarantee itíll be more enjoyable than watching a product that I donít like anymore.
seabs is offline  
Sponsored Links
post #2 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-30-2017, 11:55 AM
Guitar tech for Elias
Reversoul's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: ATL
Posts: 875
Points: 2,817
Re: FIVE COUNT: Five Lessons for WWE to learn from a fan who is done watching these Smackdown PPVs

So in other words, you're done.
Reversoul is offline  
post #3 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-30-2017, 12:28 PM
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 58,975
Points: 51,438
Re: FIVE COUNT: Five Lessons for WWE to learn from a fan who is done watching these Smackdown PPVs

It seems like WWE is mimicking the PC society approach where everyone gets a participation trophy just so that we don't hurt anybody's feelings. Instead of giving the trophies to those who actually got top places. You made such a good point regarding championships being shifted around simply because "it's that person's turn". They want everyone to feel apart of the team so they sacrifice the quality of their product to give opportunities to those who simply don't deserve it. And that boils over into the brand split itself.

In theory the brand split should work fine because of their incredible roster size, but because they book everyone like geeks, break up teams too early which hurts depth, and tell everyone that only like four people on each show matters, the show has a gap in quality, a gap in what's watchable increases from top to bottom.

Smackdown in particular has a problem with star placement and the format of the show. The main-eventers are in the mid-card, and the WWE Champion is a lifetime jobber who they don't trust closing the show on Smackdown episodes because they know he's not good enough for the closing slot. So they put him in the 2nd main-event slot at the end of the first hour. They are basically telling us that the WWE Champion isn't a real star. Since we knew this before you put the WWE title on him, why haven't you given us a reason to get interested in him? He's still the same jobber he was before he won the title. And that's because title belts don't randomly change perception.

Orton shouldn't be in the main-event soon for the next two years. As a longtime Orton supporter, he's horrid right now. I don't know if Mahal's awfulness just rubbed off on him, or if he's just been coasting since Wrestlemania. Either way he needs to go to the mid-card and stay there. I'd be fine with him being in the US division. You got 3 people playing the same anti-American gimmick. Mahal, Owens and Rusev. Why? WWE's obsession with patriotism is bullshit because THEY HAVE INTERNATIONAL FANBASES WHO DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT AMERICAN PATRIOTISM. Why can't Owens be himself? He's much better when he's allowed to just be a normal dick instead of doing this face of America/anti-American bullshit.

Nothing has mattered in WWE for years now. Wins and losses don't matter. Important moments or wins are not followed up with the appropriate booking unless you're Roman Reigns or a top guy, Start and stop pushes and 50/50 booking is the norm and they wonder why people don't get over. Look at Bray Wyatt. He just beat Rollins two straight matches. He actually won a feud for once. Shouldn't that put him in title contention? Shouldn't that evaluate him? Instead he's going to feud with Finn Balor and they will most likely have cringe Demon King/Creepy Wyatt segments. Meanwhile Rollins has moved on like he never lost to Wyatt. How do you book Rusev to return from injury and immediately lose to Cena? Anytime a wrestler returns from injury, they should be given some kind of push to capitalize off the default momentum they get just for returning. They quickly took the bloom of that rose.

Speaking of taking the bloom of that rose, they did a nice hit job on Nakamura. He's just another guy and it only took 3 months. He'll always be over because of his charisma, but he's booked like every other underdog babyface and that's simply not how Nakamura should be booked. They are good when it comes to presentation and imagery, but they are horrible when it comes to out of the box booking. Their definition of protecting someone is just making sure they don't get pinned. It goes deeper than that. They live in a bubble where every character with the exception of Brock Lesnar has to play by the same booking feud rules. Get your ass kicked, attacked backstage etc, then eventually overcome and pin.
Stormbringer and CGS like this.

Headliner is offline  
Sponsored Links
post #4 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-30-2017, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
seabs's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: ----->
Posts: 32,163
Points: 14,332
Re: FIVE COUNT: Five Lessons for WWE to learn from a fan who is done watching these Smackdown PPVs

Nakamura's been coasting so far and he deserves some of the blame being credited his way but everything else is spot on, as a general point but especially in relation to Nakamura. Working even with Corbin I can somewhat accept because Corbin's a guy they want to protect (they shouldn't be paired up right now but that's another issue) but working the same match with Ziggler that everyone works with everyone was really dumb. You don't get to say someone's special and that they're a killer inside the ring and then send them out to work the same match formula as everyone else and with guys in the midcard on top of that.

I'm not advocating this because Cena is an asset that needs protecting, even at this stage of his career, but if they had Nakamura work a Brock style match against Cena next week and run through him in under 5 minutes that'd be a statement maker and everyone would look at Nakamura as a legit top guy. You wouldn't need to spend all his match telling us, it'd be self-evident and then and only then do you get to say he's a dangerous weapon in the ring because you've actually shown it to be the case. Orton would have been the perfect person to sacrifice to him in that manner coming out of Mania because a loss isn't going to hurt Orton, even a loss in that manner. It's not really going to hurt anyone as long as you give them something coming off of it. It never hurt Cena to be squashed by Brock.
Headliner and Stormbringer like this.
seabs is offline  
post #5 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-30-2017, 07:07 PM
The Mouth of Madness!
Stormbringer's Avatar
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hitting the Gym!
Posts: 10,452
Points: 20,473
Re: FIVE COUNT: Five Lessons for WWE to learn from a fan who is done watching these Smackdown PPVs

WWE has been like this for YEARS. Yes, every year they try a new wrinkle but it always goes nowhere or is cut short.

Punk's run was ended by 50 year old inactive Nash. And Triple H had to protect him.
Bryan was super over, got the push, but then dropped and purposefully cooled off after injury.
Brock was humbled way too often when he came back and after the Triple H feud they had to build him back from scratch. Sacrificing Punk to do so.
Women's wrestling, yay. 1 year later, fuck women's wrestling.
Cruiserweight Classic, yay. Few months later, fuck small wrestlers.
Fuck Tag Team wrestling and NXT call ups. ie. Dudleyz, Ascension, Vaudevillians etc.
This Bray Wyatt guy is super over. Let's make him lose EVERY FEUD EVER!
AJ Styles as a surprise entrant in the Rumble! ROMAN FACE! Now let's job him to Jericho.
Nakamura! Dear God that match was special. Now let's make the exact same as everyone else.....

This stuff has been going on for YEARS and it finally looks like it's biting WWE in the ass. My question is what took fans so long?
Stormbringer is offline  
post #6 of 6 (permalink) Old 08-01-2017, 07:28 PM
CGS's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London England
Posts: 18,064
Points: 8,272
Re: FIVE COUNT: Five Lessons for WWE to learn from a fan who is done watching these Smackdown PPVs

Originally Posted by Headliner View Post
It seems like WWE is mimicking the PC society approach where everyone gets a participation trophy just so that we don't hurt anybody's feelings. Instead of giving the trophies to those who actually got top places. You made such a good point regarding championships being shifted around simply because "it's that person's turn". They want everyone to feel apart of the team so they sacrifice the quality of their product to give opportunities to those who simply don't deserve it. And that boils over into the brand split itself.
To an extent this is how i also feel about how they've been treating Mania over the last 5/6 years. Rather than actually looking at what talent has been the standout for the year and giving them a good spot on the show as a thank you for all the hard work you've put into your character and in ring work they instead decide to try and find a space for everyone on the roster from the actual main eventers to the jobbers who they could barely even find a slot on the Main Event show itself. It's just a joke.

In any case i'm pretty much in the same position as you seabs. I haven't watched a weekly raw or SD in its entirety since the UK SD show and the only reason I watched that show in full was because i was actually in the Arena for it. Otherwise i probably wouldn't have bothered. As for PPV's I still do try and catch them but during both Backlash & Battleground I tuned out before the Jinder match, I knew on both occassions that he had the win anyway and I had already seen the Samir singh spots so I thought whats the point in sitting down for an extra 30 odd minutes to watch something i actually have no interest in seeing.

Your relationship analogy is pretty spot on too and it's a real shame. I want to see the WWE do well but fuck me when you have people like Road Dogg booking the show while actively proclaiming that "wins and losses don't matter" it makes it really hard to keep that interest levels going. NXT and to an extent New Japan have kept my interest in wrestling itself alive but man the main roster is truly sucking the life out of me. I wanna see more stuff like Hideo getting pissed off at losing a #1 contenders match. THAT is the right reaction, not coming out the next week smiling. Its not gonna help now when Nak probably goes onto Summerslam and we have Jinder/Nak two guys who shouldn't actually be losing right now but one of them has too.

On the topic of Nak i've said it many times before but i feel he peaked in his debut match with Zayn. Ever since then he's just not been nearly as good and seriously regressed down in NXT. Since Wrestle Kingdom too i decided to take the plunge and sign up to NJPWWorld and so have been watching more of that lately and going back and seeing Nak's matches with the likes of Okada, AJ & Ibushi have been such a fucking eye opener to just how much talent this guy truly has that is being wasted away. Such a shame.

Hopefully less shows come into play with the WWE budget cuts. I get they couldn't cut shows they've already advertised and sorted venues out and such but hopefully for shows in 2018 they make a real effort to trim the numbers. I wanna see the WWE do well but they need a whole change in mentality and guys like Road Dogg and those with his style of mentality simply have go. I do tend to go through periods where i may drift in and out but keep in date with whats happening but for the first time since the trainwreck that was 2007 i feel like i could give up on the WWE tomorrow and feel happy about my life. I stopped watching for around 8 months back then and I'm half way there again now.
Stormbringer, Headliner and seabs like this.

Last edited by CGS; 08-01-2017 at 07:30 PM.
CGS is offline  

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome