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post #4421 of 4510 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 04:09 PM
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Re: Let's Talk Politics! The Official Political Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Draykorinee View Post
Carbon copy of boomers except without all the money and free stuff.
Which is why it's weird so many latch onto everything boomers say, especially in academia.

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Free HK people need to put their money where their mouth is literally and burn everything they own that was made in China. If you stop buying Chinese products you'll prevent them from amassing the kind of power they have. Simple. Anticapitalist /Anti-corporatist side wins.

Lol. Like that's gonna happen.

(I support activism of all forms btw). Just the hypocrisy is really hard to stomach.

Btw, the last few countries Americans tried to "help" didn't end up so well. I kinda feel sorry for Hong Kong right now because they're caught between two authoritarian dystopias. That's always ended well.
Wouldn't be such a problem if people weren't addicted to cheap and billions or dollars being tied up in China. Nobody is going to do much because our most "Progressive" companies like Apple and Google bow to the Chinese and work for/use them for labor. Perhaps it's not such a smart idea to be entangled up with a dictatorship that has a long history of human rights violations and fuckery.
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post #4422 of 4510 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 04:28 PM
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Re: Let's Talk Politics! The Official Political Discussion Thread

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Which is why it's weird so many latch onto everything boomers say, especially in academia.



Wouldn't be such a problem if people weren't addicted to cheap and billions or dollars being tied up in China. Nobody is going to do much because our most "Progressive" companies like Apple and Google bow to the Chinese and work for/use them for labor. Perhaps it's not such a smart idea to be entangled up with a dictatorship that has a long history of human rights violations and fuckery.
Can't tell if you're referring to the US or China here.
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post #4423 of 4510 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 04:37 PM
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Re: Let's Talk Politics! The Official Political Discussion Thread

reaper word of advice don't ever become a wrestling booker.

framing everyone as a heel doesn't work .
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post #4424 of 4510 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 05:57 PM
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Re: Let's Talk Politics! The Official Political Discussion Thread

@Draykorinee @Reaper @MrMister @Tater @DesolationRow

It's amazing that as soon as WWII is mentioned, Dray actually displays some British patriotism and national pride for once (I'm only teasing you mate ).

There are a lot of different interpretations as to what brought about the result of WWII but the argument that has always made the most sense to me is not that the allies or the Soviet Union won the war but that Nazi Germany lost it.

Had Hitler not tried to fight a war on two fronts and most importantly, not tried to invade Russia in the middle of winter with forces stretched thin and not enough resources to combat the treacherous weather in a battle of attrition.....a mistake Napoleon made some 150 years prior, then most likely Nazi Germany with Mussolini backing them up along with the Soviet's still aligned would have taken over most of Europe. Let's not forget just how much of a war machine Germany was at that time, from a military standpoint what they achieved in as short amount of time as they did was nothing short of incredible.

I've seen the circles which argue that the Soviet Union had defended Europe from Nazi German rule but let's not forget that Stalin was more than happy to form a pact with Hitler to annex Poland and break it up, which was effectively the start of the war. In reality, the Soviet's only opposed Nazi Germany and changed sides in the war when Hitler re-negged that deal and turned against them. Stalin didn't go against Hitler because he saw Nazism as a major threat to the world which had to be defeated, he went against Hitler for self-preservation. Had it been the former, the Soviet Union would have never made that deal with the Nazis to begin with.

Of course realistically, the pact would have never lasted because one of Hitler's key ideological stances was anti-communism but whilst there were key ideological differences, they also had key goals which aligned, the biggest being expansion. The Soviet Union had always seen itself as the leading force behind an international communist movement which would one day overthrow capitalism, so it only made sense that Stalin would want to expand the regimes territory. In that sense alone without even digging into some of the similarities between Fascism and Communism in practice, the Soviet Union's goals were much more in alignment in 1938 with the Nazis than with the rest of Europe. It only made sense they would make an alliance along with Italy. Had Hitler never turned against the Soviet's, there would have been no reason for Stalin to join forces with Britain and France as he would have been achieving the Soviet Union's goal of expanding Communism.

Contrast that with Britain and France immediately declaring war on Germany as soon as aggression was shown to Poland and it's not hard to see in my opinion that the argument for the Soviet Union being the driving force to defeating Nazism collapses under scrutiny when we look at both the political reality at the time as well as the political goals of each of the players involved in the war. Simply put, I don't buy it, it feels like complete revisionist history to paint the Soviet's as the heroes when in reality they acted in their own self interest and not because they were so gigantically opposed to Hitler.

Of course, there are other key moments which drove home Nazi Germany's defeat. Like Dray said, without Britain holding off German invasion for so long, you wouldn't have had the conditions for the Americans to come in through baiting the Japanese and then letting them attack Pearl Harbour in order to change the American public's opinion on entering the war.....which Tater alluded to. Of Course the US entering the war completely changed the tide as far as Western Europe is concerned, without that intervention the Nazis may have never been defeated.

But had the Nazis attention had not been split between Britain and the Soviet Union and all of their forces were focused on the last remaining European ally, then it is unlikely the Brits hold on for as long as they did.....to which by the time the Americans did enter it would have been too little too late....and I say that as a Brit.

In reality, I think that decision to turn against the Soviet's in the long run proved to be the downfall of the Nazis as it caused a lot of mistakes to be made by them and by contrast, helped turn the fortunes of the allies around. If that pact stays intact, I have a hard time believing we would have won.

But that's just my opinion .
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post #4425 of 4510 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 07:32 PM
 
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Re: Let's Talk Politics! The Official Political Discussion Thread

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Can't tell if you're referring to the US or China here.

Was thinking about this with the media today. Is the US any better off than state media when its owned by billionaires and panel shows are dominated by people who at the very least are on a higher end 6 figure income? Tricks such as making Bernie Sanders look redder in the face today with a tinted camera lense will always continue when someone wants to take on the ruling class.

Why is no-one demanding a mainstream show that only people who make 50 grand a year or less are allowed to participate in? Why does anyone think they're getting a fair shake of American politics when the only ones who have a voice have incomes the average person will never achieve?
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post #4426 of 4510 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 07:39 PM
 
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Re: Let's Talk Politics! The Official Political Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Miss Sally View Post
Which is why it's weird so many latch onto everything boomers say, especially in academia.



Wouldn't be such a problem if people weren't addicted to cheap and billions or dollars being tied up in China. Nobody is going to do much because our most "Progressive" companies like Apple and Google bow to the Chinese and work for/use them for labor. Perhaps it's not such a smart idea to be entangled up with a dictatorship that has a long history of human rights violations and fuckery.
Minor correction here. These companies bow to China mostly because of the potential market, not purely because of cheaper labor. As China become more prosperous, those assembly factories are moving to cheaper countries like Vietnam.

Think of it this way, China is 3 times the population of America. It has a growing middle class ready to be tapped to sell to. One factor that contributed to America's strength is everybody had to bow down to them to sell to their market. China is simply flexing with the same idea, only with 3 times the population and a totally shit government instead of a somewhat shit government.
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post #4427 of 4510 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 08:29 AM
 
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Re: Let's Talk Politics! The Official Political Discussion Thread

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This week, Blizzard banned Hearthstone pro Blitzchung and revoked his prize winnings for expressing support for ongoing protests in Hong Kong. The action has resulted in worldwide backlash against the publisher, as fans threaten to boycott Blizzard to protest the Blitzchung ban. It seems many of Blizzard’s own employees are unhappy with the decision too, and have staged a walkout at the company’s Irvine, California office.

The protest took place on Tuesday afternoon, as a number of anonymous employees tell the Daily Beast. “The action Blizzard took against the player was pretty appalling but not surprising,” one employee says. “Blizzard makes a lot of money in China, but now the company is in this awkward position where we can’t abide by our values.”

One employee suggests this is the start of a new era at Blizzard. “Doing business in China, it’s been easier to ignore the authoritarianism of the government because they were asking us to do things like remove a skeleton. The stakes are so much higher now. What was previously an obvious decision is much less obvious now.”

A Reddit post from a person claiming to be a Blizzard employee shows a gathering of people at the orc statue outside the company’s office, holding umbrellas as a visual symbol that has been adopted by protestors in Hong Kong. The paper covering the company’s “think globally” and “every voice matters” slogans, which we heard about yesterday, is visible here.

More Hearthstone:
Fans threaten to boycott Blizzard after the company punishes a pro’s Hong Kong protest support
Hearthstone temporarily returns 23 Wild cards to Standard
Hearthstone’s Tombs of Terror loot isn’t random and “we’ll see more Bob”
Others involved with Blizzard have protested in their own way, too. Prominent caster Brian Kibler has announced that he will no longer be involved with the Grandmasters tournament. Collegiate team American university held up a sign saying “free Hong Kong, boycott Blizzard” during another tournament this week, as Rod Breslau reports. Blizzard subsequently canceled further interviews at the event.
https://www.pcgamesn.com/blizzard-hong-kong-walkout

Quote:
PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania -- A fan was ejected from a Philadelphia 76ers preseason game against the Chinese team Guangzhou Loong Lions on Tuesday night after holding signs and shouting support for Hong Kong.

The incident came as the NBA finds itself connected to the ongoing protests in China.

Sam Wachs and his wife were holding signs in support of Hong Kong during the 76ers game at the Wells Fargo Center, but those signs were confiscated.

"There's no foul language, no politics. I asked 'Why not?' They said, 'Don't give me a hard time,'" Wachs said in an interview with Action News.


A fan was ejected from a Philadelphia 76ers preseason game against the Chinese squad Guangzhou Loong Lions on Tuesday night after holding signs and shouting support for Hong Kong.



Wachs admitted he then stood up and started yelling "Free Hong Kong" before being escorted out.

"I think it's (a) shameful, harsh reaction," Wachs added.

NBA commissioner says league will support freedom of speech


Chinese state TV suspends 2 NBA preseason game broadcasts: as seen on 6abc Action News Mornings, October 8, 2019.



On Wednesday, the 76ers issued a statement saying after "continued disruption," Wachs and his wife were removed from the game.

"The Wells Fargo Center's event staff is responsible for the security and comfort of all guests at arena events, including 76ers games. At last evening's game, following multiple complaints from guests and verbal confrontations with others in attendance, two individuals were warned by Wells Fargo Center staff about their continuing disruption of the fan experience. Ultimately, the decision was made by Wells Fargo Center personnel to remove the guests from the premises, which was accomplished without incident," the statement said.


Sixers fan supporting Hong Kong ejected from preseason game: as seen on Action News Mornings, October 9, 2019



There are 1.4 billion people in China, many of whom are NBA fans and generate millions in revenue for the league.

Earlier this week, Houston Rocket's GM Daryl Morey's support of freedom for Hong Kong triggered backlash between China and the NBA.

On Tuesday, NBA Commissioner Adam Silver said the league is not apologizing for Morey's since-deleted tweet showing support for anti-government protesters in Hong Kong, even after China's state broadcaster canceled plans to show a pair of preseason games in that country later this week.

Silver, speaking Tuesday at a news conference in Tokyo before a preseason game between the Rockets and NBA champion Toronto Raptors, went as far as to say that he and the league are "apologetic" that so many Chinese officials and fans were upset by Morey's tweet and comments that followed - but insisted that Morey has the right to freedom of expression.

"Daryl Morey, as general manager of the Houston Rockets, enjoys that right as one of our employees," Silver said. "What I also tried to suggest is that I understand there are consequences from his freedom of speech and we will have to live with those consequences."


Protesters arrested during demonstration in Hong Kong. Watch this CNN report from October 6, 2019.



"We're strongly dissatisfied and oppose Adam Silver's claim to support Morey's right to freedom of expression," CCTV said in a statement. "We believe that any remarks that challenge national sovereignty and social stability are not within the scope of freedom of speech."
The broadcaster is also reviewing all its cooperation and exchanges involving the NBA, said the statement posted to CCTV Sports' official social media account.

Download the 6abc app and get updates from Action News delivered to your phone


The NBA is not the first major corporation to deal with criticism from China over political differences. Mercedes-Benz, Delta Air Lines, hotel operator Marriott, fashion brand Zara and others also have found themselves in conflicts with China in recent years.

Silver is going to Shanghai on Wednesday and said he hopes to meet with officials and some of the league's business partners there in an effort to find some sort of common ground. He said he hopes Chinese officials and fans look at the totality of the impact of the three-decade-plus relationship between the league and their country, and urged them to see his response while acknowledging there are political differences between the countries.

"I'm sympathetic to our interests here and our partners that are upset," Silver said. "I don't think it's inconsistent on one hand to be sympathetic to them and at the same time stand by our principles."

Wells Fargo Center unveils stress-relieving 'rage room' for Flyers fans



Inside the newly-transformed Wells Fargo Center, fans will find a unique room where they can “decompress.” (Video/ Wells Fargo Center)



Silver said the NBA did not expect CCTV to cancel plans to show the Lakers-Nets games. "But if those are the consequences of us adhering to our values, I still feel it's very, very important to adhere to those values," Silver said.

The rift between China and the NBA started late last week when Morey tweeted a now-deleted image that read: "Fight for Freedom. Stand with Hong Kong," in reference to months of pro-democracy demonstrations in the semiautonomous Chinese territory that has been mired in escalating violence between protesters and law enforcement.

Efforts were quickly made to defuse the impact; Rockets owner Tilman Fertitta said Morey does not speak for the Rockets, and Morey returned to Twitter on Monday in an effort to clarify his meaning. But damage was clearly done: At least one Chinese sporting goods company said it was no longer cooperating with the Rockets, NBA streaming partner Tencent - which has a $1.5 billion contract with the league over the next five seasons - said it would not show Rockets games and a sports news website in China said it was no longer covering the team.
https://abc13.com/sports/free-hong-k...-game/5606342/

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post #4428 of 4510 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 08:52 AM
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Re: Let's Talk Politics! The Official Political Discussion Thread

What's happening with US companies taking it up the ass for China is basically what happens when you give corporations unbridled lack of restrictions to operate with impunity around the world.

Amerikkkan companies helping Hitler murder the Jews should have been the final straw to not support fascism abroad but what did this country do after hundreds of its companies were implicated in appeasing Hitler?

Nothing. And this is why history repeats itself.

It's about money in the end. And when you remove morality from the profit motive, bad things happen.
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post #4429 of 4510 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 09:46 AM
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Re: Let's Talk Politics! The Official Political Discussion Thread

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Can't tell if you're referring to the US or China here.
Both.

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Originally Posted by DOPA View Post
@Draykorinee @Reaper @MrMister @Tater @DesolationRow

It's amazing that as soon as WWII is mentioned, Dray actually displays some British patriotism and national pride for once (I'm only teasing you mate ).

There are a lot of different interpretations as to what brought about the result of WWII but the argument that has always made the most sense to me is not that the allies or the Soviet Union won the war but that Nazi Germany lost it.

Had Hitler not tried to fight a war on two fronts and most importantly, not tried to invade Russia in the middle of winter with forces stretched thin and not enough resources to combat the treacherous weather in a battle of attrition.....a mistake Napoleon made some 150 years prior, then most likely Nazi Germany with Mussolini backing them up along with the Soviet's still aligned would have taken over most of Europe. Let's not forget just how much of a war machine Germany was at that time, from a military standpoint what they achieved in as short amount of time as they did was nothing short of incredible.

I've seen the circles which argue that the Soviet Union had defended Europe from Nazi German rule but let's not forget that Stalin was more than happy to form a pact with Hitler to annex Poland and break it up, which was effectively the start of the war. In reality, the Soviet's only opposed Nazi Germany and changed sides in the war when Hitler re-negged that deal and turned against them. Stalin didn't go against Hitler because he saw Nazism as a major threat to the world which had to be defeated, he went against Hitler for self-preservation. Had it been the former, the Soviet Union would have never made that deal with the Nazis to begin with.

Of course realistically, the pact would have never lasted because one of Hitler's key ideological stances was anti-communism but whilst there were key ideological differences, they also had key goals which aligned, the biggest being expansion. The Soviet Union had always seen itself as the leading force behind an international communist movement which would one day overthrow capitalism, so it only made sense that Stalin would want to expand the regimes territory. In that sense alone without even digging into some of the similarities between Fascism and Communism in practice, the Soviet Union's goals were much more in alignment in 1938 with the Nazis than with the rest of Europe. It only made sense they would make an alliance along with Italy. Had Hitler never turned against the Soviet's, there would have been no reason for Stalin to join forces with Britain and France as he would have been achieving the Soviet Union's goal of expanding Communism.

Contrast that with Britain and France immediately declaring war on Germany as soon as aggression was shown to Poland and it's not hard to see in my opinion that the argument for the Soviet Union being the driving force to defeating Nazism collapses under scrutiny when we look at both the political reality at the time as well as the political goals of each of the players involved in the war. Simply put, I don't buy it, it feels like complete revisionist history to paint the Soviet's as the heroes when in reality they acted in their own self interest and not because they were so gigantically opposed to Hitler.

Of course, there are other key moments which drove home Nazi Germany's defeat. Like Dray said, without Britain holding off German invasion for so long, you wouldn't have had the conditions for the Americans to come in through baiting the Japanese and then letting them attack Pearl Harbour in order to change the American public's opinion on entering the war.....which Tater alluded to. Of Course the US entering the war completely changed the tide as far as Western Europe is concerned, without that intervention the Nazis may have never been defeated.

But had the Nazis attention had not been split between Britain and the Soviet Union and all of their forces were focused on the last remaining European ally, then it is unlikely the Brits hold on for as long as they did.....to which by the time the Americans did enter it would have been too little too late....and I say that as a Brit.

In reality, I think that decision to turn against the Soviet's in the long run proved to be the downfall of the Nazis as it caused a lot of mistakes to be made by them and by contrast, helped turn the fortunes of the allies around. If that pact stays intact, I have a hard time believing we would have won.

But that's just my opinion .
Most of the stuff with the Soviets is revision. Without supplies from the Allies the Soviets would have never pushed anywhere near into Germany. Also for whatever reason Hitler invaded Russia in the winter for who knows what reason. Also on D-Day supposedly the Germans knew but didn't get the order to put tanks in position which would have made D-Day a massive loss. There's so much BS propaganda from WWII it's hard to believe a lot of stuff from that era. There's some absolutely horrible shit the Russians and Americans got away with during their push into Germany.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper View Post
What's happening with US companies taking it up the ass for China is basically what happens when you give corporations unbridled lack of restrictions to operate with impunity around the world.

Amerikkkan companies helping Hitler murder the Jews should have been the final straw to not support fascism abroad but what did this country do after hundreds of its companies were implicated in appeasing Hitler?

Nothing. And this is why history repeats itself.

It's about money in the end. And when you remove morality from the profit motive, bad things happen.
The only reason the US turned on Germany was because the American Nazi party was growing rapidly, fascism was growing and I'm sure they figured out if Germany won the war. It would only be a matter of time where sympathetic Politicians and Citizens would have given the party greater control in the US. Let's be honest here, America only reacts if they'll lose money or there's a threat of losing real power.
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post #4430 of 4510 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 09:50 AM
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Re: Let's Talk Politics! The Official Political Discussion Thread

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The only reason the US turned on Germany was because the American Nazi party was growing rapidly, fascism was growing and I'm sure they figured out if Germany won the war. It would only be a matter of time where sympathetic Politicians and Citizens would have given the party greater control in the US. Let's be honest here, America only reacts if they'll lose money or there's a threat of losing real power.
Pre-history of WWII is a fascinating thing .. There were both puff pieces for Hitler throughout the states when he was first elected which changed in tone as his rhetoric against the Jews increased. They originally felt that it was just no big deal and nothing would come of it.

Meanwhile, Hitler was praising the US for its stance on segregationism, as well as was a huge fan of the American KKK ... going so far as to claim that the americans just didn't go far enough with their attitude towards inferior races .. while simultaneously taking a lot of cues from the growing wave of racism in the states that was building up to a crescendo of its own in the 20's and 30's with the KKK numbering in the millions at one point.

Doing business with the Nazis was *never* a bad thing and American politicians actively sought to suppress local dissent when it came to the billionaires of that era to continue to do business with Hitler.

Kind of a similar thing brewing here between the US and China here tbh (more economically since they're both essentially capitalist dystopias even if not socially). I hope it doesn't get that bad, but when two massive political and military powers combine like this, the little guy is *never* better off.


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