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post #21 of 647 (permalink) Old 06-20-2018, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Brexit continues to be a colossal fuck up.

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Originally Posted by Laughable Chimp View Post
“Why do I have to listen to what doctors say? Doctors have been wrong so many times in the past, surely I’m more qualified to decide what’s good and not good for my own body. Fuck the doctors”.

Is essentially supported by the same argument you’re providing but this time instead of your body, its an entire continent that’s getting affected.
Never mind that he's parroting talking points put forward by idiots like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson who's entire argument basically comes down to "we're Great Britain, bulldog spirit, stiff upper lip and the British Empire!" with absolutely nothing of substance to it. "Sovereign powers" when it was the UK putting forward more laws to the EU than any other country in the bloc and the fact that we've been rejecting EU laws for it's entire existence as is a member state's right in the first place. At least we know when it comes to UK/EU politics deepelemblues is not to be taken remotely seriously as he's getting his talking points from the clueless populists who lead the idiot masses to vote for this disaster in the first place I guess.
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post #22 of 647 (permalink) Old 06-20-2018, 02:50 PM
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Re: Brexit continues to be a colossal fuck up.

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Originally Posted by Laughable Chimp View Post
“Why do I have to listen to what doctors say? Doctors have been wrong so many times in the past, surely I’m more qualified to decide what’s good and not good for my own body. Fuck the doctors”.

Is essentially supported by the same argument you’re providing but this time instead of your body, its an entire continent that’s getting affected.
What a foolish and silly attempt at argument.

Let's leave out for a moment the greatest most recent instance of doctors being wrong, the obesity epidemic in the West that is in large part thanks to medical experts incorrectly demonizing fat and not paying attention to the dangers of processed carbohydrates. This is the largest health issue facing Western countries and was partially caused by "doctors" working with, you guessed it, governments.

We'll just leave that colossal failure with extremely dangerous consequences, the mistakes of doctors is not really relevant here.

What is relevant is that you are attempting to compare one discipline, that of medical science, to another, that of political science.

It should be obvious that one is an apple and one is an orange, but apparently it is not obvious to you. Unfortunate, but unfortunate things are to be expected in political discussion.

Now one is a more or less exact science that relies on observation of cause and effect, quantifiable (though still largely inexact in many cases, but not inexact enough to matter) evidence and causal factors. A world of facts and figures. This would be the realm of doctors.

On the other hand you have the realm of head-candlers. Now we are talking about politics, about human nature and personality, about perception and faith and emotion. Sorry but there is no exact or even inexact science for that, with established laws and certain predictability. There is no comparison to be made between experts that deal in physical realities, which usually do conform to certain consistent laws, and experts that deal in human behavior, which conforms to only one law: that the laws are always changing. Doctors and political policy "experts" are as alike as hamburgers and Tuesday.

You're bad and you should feel bad for being so bad at what you attempted to do here.

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post #23 of 647 (permalink) Old 06-20-2018, 03:01 PM
 
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Re: Brexit continues to be a colossal fuck up.

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Originally Posted by deepelemblues View Post
What a foolish and silly attempt at argument.

Let's leave out for a moment the greatest most recent instance of doctors being wrong, the obesity epidemic in the West that is in large part thanks to medical experts incorrectly demonizing fat and not paying attention to the dangers of processed carbohydrates. This is the largest health issue facing Western countries and was partially caused by "doctors" working with, you guessed it, governments.

We'll just leave that colossal failure with extremely dangerous consequences, the mistakes of doctors is not really relevant here.

What is relevant is that you are attempting to compare one discipline, that of medical science, to another, that of political science.

It should be obvious that one is an apple and one is an orange, but apparently it is not obvious to you. Unfortunate, but unfortunate things are to be expected in political discussion.

Now one is a more or less exact science that relies on observation of cause and effect, quantifiable (though still largely inexact in many cases, but not inexact enough to matter) evidence and causal factors. A world of facts and figures. This would be the realm of doctors.

On the other hand you have the realm of head-candlers. Now we are talking about politics, about human nature and personality, about perception and faith and emotion. Sorry but there is no exact or even inexact science for that, with established laws and certain predictability. There is no comparison to be made between experts that deal in physical realities, which usually do conform to certain consistent laws, and experts that deal in human behavior, which conforms to only one law: that the laws are always changing. Doctors and political policy "experts" are as alike as hamburgers and Tuesday.

You're bad and you should feel bad for being so bad at what you attempted to do here.
Lol, I don’t need to write 5 paragraphs to rebutt this.

Whatever discipline, you have experts in that discpline. These people are the best in their field and have the best skills and knowledge to handle problems in their field. The subjectivity of their field does not matter in the slightest. Otherwise, what’s the point of being an expert in political science? Is all that knowledge useless? Who are you to say you know better than the experts in that field. Only a fool would say that and you know it.
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post #24 of 647 (permalink) Old 06-20-2018, 03:02 PM
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Re: Brexit continues to be a colossal fuck up.

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Originally Posted by RavishingRickRules View Post
Never mind that he's parroting talking points put forward by idiots like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson who's entire argument basically comes down to "we're Great Britain, bulldog spirit, stiff upper lip and the British Empire!" with absolutely nothing of substance to it. "Sovereign powers" when it was the UK putting forward more laws to the EU than any other country in the bloc and the fact that we've been rejecting EU laws for it's entire existence as is a member state's right in the first place. At least we know when it comes to UK/EU politics deepelemblues is not to be taken remotely seriously as he's getting his talking points from the clueless populists who lead the idiot masses to vote for this disaster in the first place I guess.
What a pathetic sneering rant.

If you were not so ignorant as to imagine that you can ignore history, you would remember that what you deride as "bulldog spirit, stiff upper lip and the British Empire!" has been responsible for far more great events than has the enervated presumption to rule of your class, which has proudly taken up the fallen mantle of the hereditary aristocracy.

The UK putting forward more laws to the EU and rejecting EU laws from the beginning of its membership does not erase areas where the UK submitted to EU laws and regulations. Exerting sovereign prerogatives in one area does not proscribe submitting them in other areas. Obviously the UK did so in a manner that a great many of its people did not agree with. Your apparent solution to their discontent is to tell them to shut their dumb mouths and deal with it. How you did not understand the consequences of such hubris is a mystery, considering your self-presentation as superior in knowledge and intellect.

At least we know when it comes to UK/EU politics, or any politics, your grasp of the fundamentals is so deliberately narrow that nothing you say is to be taken as anything other than the desperate sneer of a degenerated ruling class that cannot deal like adults with a loosening of its grip on power.

Despite your hysterical attempts to frighten the people back into leaving power to you and not raising a fuss no matter how stupid your decisions are, Britain will be just fine.

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post #25 of 647 (permalink) Old 06-20-2018, 03:07 PM
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Re: Brexit continues to be a colossal fuck up.

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Originally Posted by RavishingRickRules View Post
The bold is a forgone conclusion, there is no way to succeed at Brexit. It's literally impossible to make us a better country post Brexit than we've been in the EU.
That's a sad statement. Sounds like you guys need someone like Trump to revive your national spirit and introduce some positive thinking.
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post #26 of 647 (permalink) Old 06-20-2018, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Brexit continues to be a colossal fuck up.

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That's a sad statement. Sounds like you guys need someone like Trump to revive your national spirit and introduce some positive thinking.
National spirit means fuck all when your country doesn't produce anything of value and the one thing you excel at, nobody outside of the EU is asking for (financial services.) National pride is all well and good, but it doesn't put food on the table. Besides, hard to be proud of a country that doesn't want anything to do with every generation of my family outside of my own .

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post #27 of 647 (permalink) Old 06-20-2018, 03:14 PM
 
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Re: Brexit continues to be a colossal fuck up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deepelemblues View Post
What a pathetic sneering rant.

If you were not so ignorant as to imagine that you can ignore history, you would remember that what you deride as "bulldog spirit, stiff upper lip and the British Empire!" has been responsible for far more great events than has the enervated presumption to rule of your class, which has proudly taken up the fallen mantle of the hereditary aristocracy.

The UK putting forward more laws to the EU and rejecting EU laws from the beginning of its membership does not erase areas where the UK submitted to EU laws and regulations. Exerting sovereign prerogatives in one area does not proscribe submitting them in other areas. Obviously the UK did so in a manner that a great many of its people did not agree with. Your apparent solution to their discontent is to tell them to shut their dumb mouths and deal with it. How you did not understand the consequences of such hubris is a mystery, considering your self-presentation as superior in knowledge and intellect.

At least we know when it comes to UK/EU politics, or any politics, your grasp of the fundamentals is so deliberately narrow that nothing you say is to be taken as anything other than the desperate sneer of a degenerated ruling class that cannot deal like adults with a loosening of its grip on power.

Despite your hysterical attempts to frighten the people back into leaving power to you and not raising a fuss no matter how stupid your decisions are, Britain will be just fine.
You didn't counter my point. All you did was kind of criticize me and my argument without actually countering it then launch straight into a rant why Brexit is good which I wasn't arguing in the first place nor am I interested in arguing.

How am I supposed to argue against someone who changes his arguments when it suits him?

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post #28 of 647 (permalink) Old 06-20-2018, 03:18 PM
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Re: Brexit continues to be a colossal fuck up.

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Originally Posted by Laughable Chimp View Post
Lol, I don’t need to write 5 paragraphs to rebutt this.

Whatever discipline, you have experts in that discpline. These people are the best in their field and have the best skills and knowledge to handle problems in their field. The subjectivity of their field does not matter in the slightest. Otherwise, what’s the point of being an expert in political science? Is all that knowledge useless? Who are you to say you know better than the experts in that field. Only a fool would say that and you know it.
This is the level of critical thinking we have nowadays

The subjectivity of a field certainly does matter, no matter how much you wish to handwave that consideration away. How could it not? The more subjective a field, the wider the range of justifiable conclusions. 2 + 2 will always be 4. That is an objective field. Politics is not an objective field, never has been, never will be.

I don't know what the point to being a trained expert in political science is, considering how often such trained experts are wrong. Perhaps because they are human beings, with their own preferences and biases.

Or do you really think that experts in political science examine political questions the way a doctor examines a patient? If you think that... wow. The ignorance and naivete.

Is all that knowledge useless? Did I say that no? No. What is useless is your slavish worship of that knowledge.

Who am I to say I know better? Someone who has not been incorrect as often as they have been, for one. I did not incorrectly predict the result of the last US presidential election, or the Brexit referendum, or the Scottish independence referendum, as the majority of political experts did. I did not incorrectly pooh-pooh the idea the German position on migrant policy would cause political upheaval across the entire Continent. These are serious and weighty events, where the experts were wrong. Going back further, the consensus of political experts in the early and mid 1980s was the Soviet Union was on solid footing, and the Reagan/Thatcher policies of confrontation and competition were misguided and doomed to failure. They were wrong yet again. Expert political opinion in the United States believed that the People's Liberation Army would never cross the Yalu River in force to save North Korea from the advancing United Nations armies. Wrong. Expert political opinion considered the chances that yet another diplomatic flare-up in the Balkans of causing a general European war in 1914 as slim to none. Wrong again. I could go back farther. Expert political opinion in Great Britain at the time of the American Emancipation Proclamation was that the result of the Proclamation would be a bloody and ruinous race war. No such race war occurred. I could go on at extreme length detailing the failures of expertise in politics.

Your genuflection at the altar of expertise on non-physical questions is a practice that is already moldering in the ash heap of history.

There has been an AEWakening... have you felt it?

The mark wars have begun again

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post #29 of 647 (permalink) Old 06-20-2018, 03:23 PM
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Re: Brexit continues to be a colossal fuck up.

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Originally Posted by RavishingRickRules View Post
National spirit means fuck all when your country doesn't produce anything of value and the one thing you excel at, nobody outside of the EU is asking for (financial services.) National pride is all well and good, but it doesn't put food on the table. Besides, hard to be proud of a country that doesn't want anything to do with every generation of my family outside of my own .
This is why you need a Trump. Someone with the negotiating and persuasion talent to manufacture assets out of thin air. Your thinking is far too constrained, much like the people who said it would be impossible for Trump to do any number of the things he's already done despite unprecedented opposition.

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post #30 of 647 (permalink) Old 06-20-2018, 03:26 PM
 
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Re: Brexit continues to be a colossal fuck up.

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Originally Posted by deepelemblues View Post
This is the level of critical thinking we have nowadays

The subjectivity of a field certainly does matter, no matter how much you wish to handwave that consideration away. How could it not? The more subjective a field, the wider the range of justifiable conclusions. 2 + 2 will always be 4. That is an objective field. Politics is not an objective field, never has been, never will be.

I don't know what the point to being a trained expert in political science is, considering how often such trained experts are wrong. Perhaps because they are human beings, with their own preferences and biases.

Or do you really think that experts in political science examine political questions the way a doctor examines a patient? If you think that... wow. The ignorance and naivete.

Is all that knowledge useless? Did I say that no? No. What is useless is your slavish worship of that knowledge.

Who am I to say I know better? Someone who has not been incorrect as often as they have been, for one. I did not incorrectly predict the result of the last US presidential election, or the Brexit referendum, or the Scottish independence referendum, as the majority of political experts did. I did not incorrectly pooh-pooh the idea the German position on migrant policy would cause political upheaval across the entire Continent. These are serious and weighty events, where the experts were wrong. Going back further, the consensus of political experts in the early and mid 1980s was the Soviet Union was on solid footing, and the Reagan/Thatcher policies of confrontation and competition were misguided and doomed to failure. They were wrong yet again. Expert political opinion in the United States believed that the People's Liberation Army would never cross the Yalu River in force to save North Korea from the advancing United Nations armies. Wrong. Expert political opinion considered the chances that yet another diplomatic flare-up in the Balkans of causing a general European war in 1914 as slim to none. Wrong again. I could go back farther. Expert political opinion in Great Britain at the time of the American Emancipation Proclamation was that the result of the Proclamation would be a bloody and ruinous race war. No such race war occurred. I could go on at extreme length detailing the failures of expertise in politics.

Your genuflection at the altar of expertise on non-physical questions is a practice that is already moldering in the ash heap of history.
So, what you’re saying is, that because the field is so subjective, that different experts can have many different conclusions so you cannot rely on experts?

But then, isn’t it incredibly damning that despite the subjectivity of political science, that so many different experts have with all their different lines of thinking have almost all come to the same conclusion about Brexit?

Your point about subjectivity can only apply if different experts are all reaching different subjective conclusions. However, in this case near all of them are reaching the same conclusion on this topic that it is for all intents and purposes and objective conclusion. Is it not foolish to completely overlook the conclusion of all these experts?

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