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post #111 of 8705 (permalink) Old 12-16-2018, 05:51 AM
 
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Re: AEW - All Elite Wrestling (The Elite/Jericho/Ross/Khan) - New Promotion?

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I don't think it's as much as thinking it doesn't help, but more so being annoyed at how in our bubble it's treated as if it's the correct solution for everything as if the Indy scene is infallible. Take Drew what exactly did he do on the Indy scene or in Impact that was that exciting or memorable besides getting big. But yet his return was treated as if he was some hot entity which is kind of bizarre. Or for instance remember when Damien Sandow was considered to be horribly misused by WWE and he needed to be on the Indy scene where he could flourish. See how well that went. Or even Cody what's so great and different about Cody now vs when he was in WWE or hell even Impact. I don't see folk really clamoring and praising his matches or promos. But somehow he's white hot lol.



The question is how long could they bank on that though? Especially if they don't have exclusive contracts besides them? On one hand it has potential and is great for more options. But on the flip it seems as silly as when WCW wanted to do an nWo brand. Plus with the Elite being seen as rebels is a lot of their identity, can they maintain that feel when they're the boss. What m
Id rather watch all three of them now then as they were.



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post #112 of 8705 (permalink) Old 12-16-2018, 07:19 AM
 
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Re: AEW - All Elite Wrestling (The Elite/Jericho/Ross/Khan) - New Promotion?

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Originally Posted by RapShepard View Post
I don't think it's as much as thinking it doesn't help, but more so being annoyed at how in our bubble it's treated as if it's the correct solution for everything as if the Indy scene is infallible. Take Drew what exactly did he do on the Indy scene or in Impact that was that exciting or memorable besides getting big. But yet his return was treated as if he was some hot entity which is kind of bizarre. Or for instance remember when Damien Sandow was considered to be horribly misused by WWE and he needed to be on the Indy scene where he could flourish. See how well that went. Or even Cody what's so great and different about Cody now vs when he was in WWE or hell even Impact. I don't see folk really clamoring and praising his matches or promos. But somehow he's white hot lol.
Excuse me?
Drew became a huge star with ICW. Same with Cody who's way cooler than he ever was before. Sandow left wrestling, that has nothing to do with the rest.

But yeah, I agree with the idea that not everyone in WWE is a star awaiting its moment. Some are plain boring, you just took the wrong examples.



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post #113 of 8705 (permalink) Old 12-16-2018, 08:03 AM
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I will just never understand those that think the idy scene DOESNT help wrestlers.
I don't think it's as much as thinking it doesn't help, but more so being annoyed at how in our bubble it's treated as if it's the correct solution for everything as if the Indy scene is infallible. Take Drew what exactly did he do on the Indy scene or in Impact that was that exciting or memorable besides getting big. But yet his return was treated as if he was some hot entity which is kind of bizarre. Or for instance remember when Damien Sandow was considered to be horribly misused by WWE and he needed to be on the Indy scene where he could flourish. See how well that went. Or even Cody what's so great and different about Cody now vs when he was in WWE or hell even Impact. I don't see folk really clamoring and praising his matches or promos. But somehow he's white hot lol.

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The Bullet Club is different. They have a shit ton of people buying all their shirts, and Hot Topic is always sold out. If they start a promotion today they would get the fans to come. No question about it. All-IN wasn't just 10,000 people in an arena, it was 10,000 people selling it out in under an hour. The message they would be sending if this happened would be that "Your voice matters again", or simply wrestling is back.

Cody and the Young Bucks have created the strongest brand in independent wrestling.
The question is how long could they bank on that though? Especially if they don't have exclusive contracts besides them? On one hand it has potential and is great for more options. But on the flip it seems as silly as when WCW wanted to do an nWo brand. Plus with the Elite being seen as rebels is a lot of their identity, can they maintain that feel when they're the boss. What m
Drew was doing great stuff in the british independent sence and was a lot of fun to watch in defiant for me. Also did stuff in ICW. So drew is a terrible example
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post #114 of 8705 (permalink) Old 12-16-2018, 01:19 PM
 
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Re: AEW - All Elite Wrestling (The Elite/Jericho/Ross/Khan) - New Promotion?

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Id rather watch all three of them now then as they were.
But what about all 3 of them do you enjoy more than there time in WWE. Surely there's a reason why right?

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Excuse me?
Drew became a huge star with ICW. Same with Cody who's way cooler than he ever was before. Sandow left wrestling, that has nothing to do with the rest.

But yeah, I agree with the idea that not everyone in WWE is a star awaiting its moment. Some are plain boring, you just took the wrong examples.
I mean no disrespect, but surely becoming a big star in ICW is kind of an oxymoron right. Like not saying their product sucks I don't watch it. But it doesn't sound like the type of promotion large enough to create a big star.

But agree to disagree on that tidbit. Because my main point is I don't think everybody is a star in waiting.
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post #115 of 8705 (permalink) Old 12-16-2018, 02:01 PM
 
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Re: AEW - All Elite Wrestling (The Elite/Jericho/Ross/Khan) - New Promotion?

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But what about all 3 of them do you enjoy more than there time in WWE. Surely there's a reason why right?



I mean no disrespect, but surely becoming a big star in ICW is kind of an oxymoron right. Like not saying their product sucks I don't watch it. But it doesn't sound like the type of promotion large enough to create a big star.

But agree to disagree on that tidbit. Because my main point is I don't think everybody is a star in waiting.
Your arrogant tone will not help you.

Cody's heel work and work rate has been night amd day. Some don't see it, I do. as For Drew, your ignorance speaks for itself as far as ICW goes. That's on you. Third, as others mentioned Sandow left, but I enjoyed his Aaron Wrex persona and I think if he was given time it could have been special.

You had a reasonable argument, but your reasoning is making it sink and fast. Especially taking previous conversations with you into account.

Go ahead. Just pull a Nash or Al Snow & say we're all neckbeard marks with no clue about the business. You know you want to.
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post #116 of 8705 (permalink) Old 12-16-2018, 02:28 PM
 
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Re: AEW - All Elite Wrestling (The Elite/Jericho/Ross/Khan) - New Promotion?

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The Bullet Club is different. They have a shit ton of people buying all their shirts, and Hot Topic is always sold out. If they start a promotion today they would get the fans to come. No question about it. All-IN wasn't just 10,000 people in an arena, it was 10,000 people selling it out in under an hour. The message they would be sending if this happened would be that "Your voice matters again", or simply wrestling is back.

Cody and the Young Bucks have created the strongest brand in independent wrestling.
I'm not saying that All In wasn't an achievement but it was one show. One show that took months of promotion to get to the point of selling out in under an hour. They were able to use many wrestlers that they will not have access to in the near future. There was a shit ton of support from ROH and NJPW as well. They let wrestlers who had exclusive contracts perform on the show. If Cody and The Bucks do move forward in a meaningful way with AEW they will not get those dispensations they will be the competition and therefore talent will be prohibited from working with them. Selling out one show isn't something that a TV network will look at as anything but a bubble achievement. It's common knowledge that it took a lot to get to that point. It wasn't just some pop-up wrestling show that handed that was announced on a Monday and run on a Sunday. There is a lot of work that needs to be done to even get to a point of being a viable brand. I want them to succeed but it doesn't happen overnight.

Ted Turner bought and saved a well-known(albeit financially strapped) wrestling promotion and employed it's established roster and it took years to make a profit from it. It's a hard business. It isn't a growth industry as the market is small particularly(and getting smaller) in the US and you are always sharing viewers with everybody else. The majority of people who watch "wrestling" watch ROH/NJPW/LU and more than likely a large portion of them watch WWE as well. Each company isn't drawing 100% unique viewers. "Wrestling" was never the draw in the boom periods in the US. It was larger than life characters and celebrities and the mix of music and wrestling in the Rock N' Wrestling Era. It was the unpredictable non-PC TV that captured people during the Attitude Era(you can't do that anymore and maintain advertisers, the world has changed). The wrestling was secondary. Long PPV matches were fifteen minutes and often reserved for main events only. It was the ability to truly cross over into the mainstream consciousness that created those bubbles and having fifty-minute wrestling matches isn't going to accomplish that.

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post #117 of 8705 (permalink) Old 12-16-2018, 02:44 PM
 
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Re: AEW - All Elite Wrestling (The Elite/Jericho/Ross/Khan) - New Promotion?

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Your arrogant tone will not help you.

Cody's heel work and work rate has been night amd day. Some don't see it, I do. as For Drew, your ignorance speaks for itself as far as ICW goes. That's on you. Third, as others mentioned Sandow left, but I enjoyed his Aaron Wrex persona and I think if he was given time it could have been special.

You had a reasonable argument, but your reasoning is making it sink and fast. Especially taking previous conversations with you into account.

Go ahead. Just pull a Nash or Al Snow & say we're all neckbeard marks with no clue about the business. You know you want to.
The fuck are you talking about stop taking it so personal. What's so hard about explaining what you like?

My thing is I hear a lot about Cody, but not a lot about Cody if you get my drift. Like with for instance with Kenny Omega despite not being interested in NJPW I hear a lot about him, what he's doing, and what people hope to see him do. I for sure frequently hear about his matches. But with Cody the only things I've heard about where when he and Reigns had their issue, the BC break up, and he was supposed to get the NWA title. But I haven't heard much about him and his NJPW US champ run or potential feuds. Like from a bank account stand point I see how he's doing better. But as a talent it's hard to tell if he's doing that much better when I rarely hear about him, unlike with Omega, Okada, Naito, Tanahsi, and Ibushi.

With Drew look you can say me not being aware of ICW is ignorant, but we both know ICW isn't considered one of the major promotions like ROH, Impact, or NJPW. If the big example of Drew killing it post WWE is ICW, it's kind of hard to buy he was truly setting the world on fire. Especially given his Impact nor NXT run was that great and I seen both. Again my ignorance aside what was it about his ICW run that was great? Was it the matches, the promos, the character. These are the things I'm not hearing about him to really buy into the idea that he was setting the independent scene on fire. .

With Rex your like what exactly did you prefer about that character over Sandow.

You're saying you prefered these wrestlers more outside of WWE. While giving no actual reasoning behind why. You say Codys heel work and work rate is night an day different. But give no examples of how he's improved. You say Drew was on fire on the independent scene but give no examples of how on fire he was. You say you liked the Aaron Rex character, but said nothing about why.

This is my point about why the rest of the wrestling world gets dismissed sometimes from certain fans. Instead of getting all defensive and assuming I hate the independents, why don't you actually give some depth to why you liked them. Because as of now all you've said is a bunch of vague things.
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post #118 of 8705 (permalink) Old 12-16-2018, 03:38 PM
 
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The fuck are you talking about stop taking it so personal. What's so hard about explaining what you like?

My thing is I hear a lot about Cody, but not a lot about Cody if you get my drift. Like with for instance with Kenny Omega despite not being interested in NJPW I hear a lot about him, what he's doing, and what people hope to see him do. I for sure frequently hear about his matches. But with Cody the only things I've heard about where when he and Reigns had their issue, the BC break up, and he was supposed to get the NWA title. But I haven't heard much about him and his NJPW US champ run or potential feuds. Like from a bank account stand point I see how he's doing better. But as a talent it's hard to tell if he's doing that much better when I rarely hear about him, unlike with Omega, Okada, Naito, Tanahsi, and Ibushi.

With Drew look you can say me not being aware of ICW is ignorant, but we both know ICW isn't considered one of the major promotions like ROH, Impact, or NJPW. If the big example of Drew killing it post WWE is ICW, it's kind of hard to buy he was truly setting the world on fire. Especially given his Impact nor NXT run was that great and I seen both. Again my ignorance aside what was it about his ICW run that was great? Was it the matches, the promos, the character. These are the things I'm not hearing about him to really buy into the idea that he was setting the independent scene on fire. .

With Rex your like what exactly did you prefer about that character over Sandow.

You're saying you prefered these wrestlers more outside of WWE. While giving no actual reasoning behind why. You say Codys heel work and work rate is night an day different. But give no examples of how he's improved. You say Drew was on fire on the independent scene but give no examples of how on fire he was. You say you liked the Aaron Rex character, but said nothing about why.

This is my point about why the rest of the wrestling world gets dismissed sometimes from certain fans. Instead of getting all defensive and assuming I hate the independents, why don't you actually give some depth to why you liked them. Because as of now all you've said is a bunch of vague things.
My man, it isnt just this convo. It isn't hard to see you have a lot of preconceptions about Indy fans from your posts in general. You always have a contrarian view to the average and there's nothing wrong with that in theory. Variety is the spice of life and all that. Sometimes though it seems like you tend to be contrarian or pessimistic toward Indy news just because you can. Look at your post. No. I don't have to tell you any of those things. Nor can I feel inclined to when you'll only want to counter the reasons given anyway. You don't seem to want to simply know for curiosity's sake. You want to prove or disprove people's assesments, and I won't be roped into that.

Im not trying to be rude, but It's hard to feel inclined to have a discussion with you with the tones you take. You don't have any greater knowledge than the rest of us to critique the tastes of others.



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post #119 of 8705 (permalink) Old 12-16-2018, 04:16 PM
 
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My man, it isnt just this convo. It isn't hard to see you have a lot of preconceptions about Indy fans from your posts in general. You always have a contrarian view to the average and there's nothing wrong with that in theory. Variety is the spice of life and all that. Sometimes though it seems like you tend to be contrarian or pessimistic toward Indy news just because you can. Look at your post. No. I don't have to tell you any of those things. Nor can I feel inclined to when you'll only want to counter the reasons given anyway. You don't seem to want to simply know for curiosity's sake. You want to prove or disprove people's assesments, and I won't be roped into that.

Im not trying to be rude, but It's hard to feel inclined to have a discussion with you with the tones you take. You don't have any greater knowledge than the rest of us to critique the tastes of others.
No I give my honest opinions on things it's not about trying to be a contrarian. I prefer brawlers, giants, and power houses. I'm not budging on that just because that's not necessarily the norm with hardcore fans. WWE is my favorite promotion and I actually enjoy it the majority of the time. I'm not budging on that just because it's not the norm. But if you knew anything about what I like I love LU, and think WWE could learn a lot from them from a production standpoint and telling longer stories. I also think Impact has been interesting for a while. The only real difference is I'm not the type of fan that feels being the FotC is a big deal or that losing a match or feud is the worst thing ever. Also I don't pretend to not realize what generally goes over big and what generally doesn't, in our hardcore bubble. Yes I get everybody is an individual, but as a whole certain things are more like to get over or get initial love than others.

But back to the main conversation. If I'm not a viewer of ICW what's so hard about telling me what was so great about Drew's work there? Because unfortunately it's not a major promotion, so it's weird to expect everyone to have knowledge of what went on there. Like I seen his Impact work, but it was okay nothing really breath taking. It wasn't like say an EC3, Lashley, or Matt Hardy's where it's clear as day how WWE failed them.

Same with Sandow what did you see with Sandow in Impact that you preferred that over his WWE time?

You said you preferred them elsewhere what's so hard about explaining why on a discussion board? Saying that you think I'm trying to prove you wrong comes off like a cop out. Especially since it's not like I've called your opinion wrong. I'm just asking you to elaborate on why? What have I said in here that's pessimistic, besides the factual statement of not everybody can leave the WWE and move up the card.

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post #120 of 8705 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 05:44 PM
 
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No I give my honest opinions on things it's not about trying to be a contrarian. I prefer brawlers, giants, and power houses. I'm not budging on that just because that's not necessarily the norm with hardcore fans. WWE is my favorite promotion and I actually enjoy it the majority of the time. I'm not budging on that just because it's not the norm. But if you knew anything about what I like I love LU, and think WWE could learn a lot from them from a production standpoint and telling longer stories. I also think Impact has been interesting for a while. The only real difference is I'm not the type of fan that feels being the FotC is a big deal or that losing a match or feud is the worst thing ever. Also I don't pretend to not realize what generally goes over big and what generally doesn't, in our hardcore bubble. Yes I get everybody is an individual, but as a whole certain things are more like to get over or get initial love than others.

But back to the main conversation. If I'm not a viewer of ICW what's so hard about telling me what was so great about Drew's work there? Because unfortunately it's not a major promotion, so it's weird to expect everyone to have knowledge of what went on there. Like I seen his Impact work, but it was okay nothing really breath taking. It wasn't like say an EC3, Lashley, or Matt Hardy's where it's clear as day how WWE failed them.

Same with Sandow what did you see with Sandow in Impact that you preferred that over his WWE time?

You said you preferred them elsewhere what's so hard about explaining why on a discussion board? Saying that you think I'm trying to prove you wrong comes off like a cop out. Especially since it's not like I've called your opinion wrong. I'm just asking you to elaborate on why? What have I said in here that's pessimistic, besides the factual statement of not everybody can leave the WWE and move up the card.
You don't have to call my opinion wrong outright to give the impression that you'd rather critique it. It just seems like you think all this love we have for other non-WWE products is fake or just people being "Marks, brother." You give the impression that you'd rather sit and listen to a Vince Russo rant about how we need to go back to 1998 than be excited about the prospect of AEW coming into existence. You can like WWE all you want. Some of us however are damn sick and tired of them and are glad to enjoy something else. Besides, If you're so adamant about not budging on things like that then why even ask these questions? What is it you hope to find out that you aren't going to try and pull a counter argument out of nowhere for? If our reasons for watching other products are so illogical to you, then why should I waste my breath? I don't need to sit here and be given a lecture about how ROH is somehow just as awful as WWE behind the scenes from a guy who already prefers WWE anyway and therefore naturally WOULD say that. Not only that, but THEN you have the nerve to try and pass it off as merely"Noticing trends", as if to call the rest of us ignorant to how the business works while YOU have all the facts. That's never sat well with me. Its like you look at people here and think "Ohoho, those silly internet fans! They think they're people! " - Sorry if i'm incorrect, but thats always been the vibe you give off. It's backwards, it serves no purpose but to demean modern fans and quite frankly it's tasteless. Just because Vinny Mac has his company shoved up society's ass thanks to literally billions of dollars in corporate shilling and marketing doesn't mean he has the first clue about making a good product in this current day and age. Post all the figures you want. The casual audience is only watching WWE because it's the only thing they've been trained to watch. They've been spoonfed the WWE brand so ling that it doesn't matter if Vince comes out on Raw tonight and has a big diarrhea dump in the middle of the ring for three hours (Except I mean literally, not the regular figurative one he puts out every other week.) There will always be something keeping it afloat because the average fan doesn't know any better that there's a whole world out there apart from it to explore. Yes, I can ACTUALLY watch certain companies and know I'll be able to enjoy myself most of the time. Yeah, maybe with some jank thrown in, and maybe things that i'd be angry at WWE for doing SOMETIMES, but to a far less nauseating extent. I for one don't care if you think I'm letting them get away with the same shit. I know what I find good to watch and what I don't. Nuts to you or anyone else that tries to tell people otherwise. So I'll tell you again: Cody, Drew and others IMPROVED on the indy scene. YES. If you want examples, look at whats plainly out there to see. You can disagree, of course, but I'm not going to act like Cody for example isn't greater as a character than he's ever been. You can use the phrase "Hardcore bubble" all day if it suits you.

Edit: Oh and if you wanna see ICW there are plenty of sites to watch it on. Thats better than me telling you. I mostly saw him in TNA but ICW has been a major indy a long time. It's not weird! In fact I need to catch up on them.



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