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post #801 of 833 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 10:18 AM
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Re: Punk & Heyman mocking King's heart attack

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Originally Posted by KO Bossy View Post
Even if it is actors playing a part, the issue is that they decided to go down that road in the first place. It just gives the company this slimy look when they take the near death experience of one of their most famous, loyal and long time workers and try to make money off of it. That goes for everything-the t-shirts they made, the footage of Lawler they kept replaying showing him passing out and making it into an angle. Regardless if Lawler WAS cool with it, they're trying to push a story where he WASN'T cool with it. They don't see Jerry on screen saying "yeah, its cool, I don't mind." On top of that, even if he was ok with it, that doesn't mean there are people in the audience who are. What about the people watching at home who have had friends or family who have died of a heart attack, then they see WWE making fun of it for the purpose of making money. I just get kind of turned off by all of it, not because I'm offended, but its more due to the fact that its a sign that they can't use legitimate, tactful means of getting heat. It comes across as a sign of desperation that they're willing to go to very questionable extremes in order to advance the product. Time and time again they've proven they can keep things tasteful and succeed, and then every so often they bust something like this out, and I have to wonder why. It could have been achieved another way, and instead the way they chose comes across as very low class-hence why people here are referring to it as cheap heat. Its a shortcut guaranteed to work, but they're treading touchy waters. Does the end justify the means? I don't think so. They had the ability to work around this and find another equally, if not more, effective way that they could have used to display their creativity. It wasn't like this was the ONLY way to go. The fact that they did makes it seem like they're grasping for anything that will work, and if its easier, all the better, regardless if that method is pretty apparently offensive to a lot of people.
I'm sure that the company has been slimier. A heart attack is a terrible thing, but Stratus degrading herself and barking like a dog on all fours for Vince's amusement and in front of the world was pretty damn bad too.

Granted, I would personally punch a guy who was mimicking a heart attack in front of a person who just suffered one if it happened in real life, but this is no longer real life anymore. Choosing to do the heart attack angle wasn't against Jerry's, Foley's, Punk's, Cole's, JR's or anyone else's own will (Jerry most importantly), so I personally don't see a problem in taking that road. Sure there are plenty of other options they could have taken, but as "cheap" as some of you say this angle was it was still effective.

If the audience decides that the WWE is making fun of anyone's heart attack issues other than Lawler's then maybe they deserve to stick with lighter shows on TV. I have family that have dealt with some of the issues that the WWE has made angles on and I know better. Not everyone knows better, though.

In your opinion what would have been a more tactful, legitimate means of getting heat? A move like this is something that a villain character would do. Punk just needs to do more. OR take a break and return as a face if doing more does Punk no good and the crowd always remains on his side.

I don't see it as desperation. I see it as them finally able to flex their wings a little without politics overshadowing them and Linda thus influencing what Vince needs to do to keep that shadow away.

I just got back into watching it this year. How often is the show tasteful and successful and I don't just mean in parts.

Like I said before, offensive can be good. Maybe the WWE will get a different audience demographic over time. Maybe it won't. Maybe there will be so much backlash that Cena will have to go back to "son-of-a-beez-wax". Again, I would rather be offended and hating a fictional character than to sit there rolling my eyes at the stories I see unfold.

Those are just my views, though. I know not everyone is going to think like me and that's fine.
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post #802 of 833 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 12:53 PM
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Re: Punk & Heyman mocking King's heart attack

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Originally Posted by Taker2theMoon View Post
I'm sure that the company has been slimier. A heart attack is a terrible thing, but Stratus degrading herself and barking like a dog on all fours for Vince's amusement and in front of the world was pretty damn bad too.

Granted, I would personally punch a guy who was mimicking a heart attack in front of a person who just suffered one if it happened in real life, but this is no longer real life anymore. Choosing to do the heart attack angle wasn't against Jerry's, Foley's, Punk's, Cole's, JR's or anyone else's own will (Jerry most importantly), so I personally don't see a problem in taking that road. Sure there are plenty of other options they could have taken, but as "cheap" as some of you say this angle was it was still effective.

If the audience decides that the WWE is making fun of anyone's heart attack issues other than Lawler's then maybe they deserve to stick with lighter shows on TV. I have family that have dealt with some of the issues that the WWE has made angles on and I know better. Not everyone knows better, though.

In your opinion what would have been a more tactful, legitimate means of getting heat? A move like this is something that a villain character would do. Punk just needs to do more. OR take a break and return as a face if doing more does Punk no good and the crowd always remains on his side.

I don't see it as desperation. I see it as them finally able to flex their wings a little without politics overshadowing them and Linda thus influencing what Vince needs to do to keep that shadow away.

I just got back into watching it this year. How often is the show tasteful and successful and I don't just mean in parts.

Like I said before, offensive can be good. Maybe the WWE will get a different audience demographic over time. Maybe it won't. Maybe there will be so much backlash that Cena will have to go back to "son-of-a-beez-wax". Again, I would rather be offended and hating a fictional character than to sit there rolling my eyes at the stories I see unfold.

Those are just my views, though. I know not everyone is going to think like me and that's fine.
This. Everyone was all ecstatic that Linda lost the election and stated she wasn't going to run again --- meaning their was a possibility that WWE was going to be a little edgier again (not as edgy as the Attitude Era, but a bit edgier) --- and when they pulled the trigger on a very edgy segment not even a week later - people say they went too far. Now I know everyone that claims they know the business say Linda's campaign and WWE programming aren't connecting - but I can guarantee that they wouldn't have done this segment prior to Election Day (thus WWE definetly played it a bit safer when she was running). I was fine with the segment because they've definetly done worse (like Cole mocking Jerry's mother passing away right after that happened - also a real-life situation - one where the person ACTUALLY died - Jerry's okay and went through with the segment - so let's move on). I'm hoping that moving forward they have at least one "edgy" segment a week to spark this much relevant conversation to their shows --- again it's not the Attitude Era, but at least it would be a consistently edgier, and in my opinion, better product than they've had...

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post #803 of 833 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 01:22 PM
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Re: Punk & Heyman mocking King's heart attack

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Now I know everyone that claims they know the business say Linda's campaign and WWE programming aren't connecting - but I can guarantee that they wouldn't have done this segment prior to Election Day (thus WWE definetly played it a bit safer when she was running).
I think that the product has been so user-safe lately that people have forgotten just how the WWE can really be and now the product can go on with less restrictions on it. I don't necessarily think that there should be another attitude era, or that the show should be rated R, but this is the first real thing catching attention I've seen happen since Lesnar came back. Some small interesting things have occurred here and there, but nothing as impacting.

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post #804 of 833 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 01:47 PM
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Re: Punk & Heyman mocking King's heart attack

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The backlash they're receiving justifies why they should never be edgy again. People are so easily offended nowadays.
What backlash?

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You fucking politically correct morons are quick to defend WWE for every pussy ass decision they make, but complain about the show lacking attitude and intensity... SMH.
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post #805 of 833 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 03:06 PM
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Re: Punk & Heyman mocking King's heart attack

Why do people still think ratings are relevant in the era of the internet?






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post #806 of 833 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 03:15 PM
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Re: Punk & Heyman mocking King's heart attack

I've gotta say, I'd rather see Heyman booking a Vince vs. Lawler angle, than Vince booking a Heyman vs. Lawler angle.

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post #807 of 833 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 03:20 PM
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Re: Punk & Heyman mocking King's heart attack

So the whole crux of the argument seems to be "Lawler didn't die, therefore its not as big a deal." I fail to see how that makes it OK, myself. If someone gets cancer and survives, does that suddenly mean its cool to rip on them?

Most of the time in storytelling, they might use an issue like a heart attack as a plot point, but because its a fictitious heart attack they're talking about, its seen as fine. In this case its different because the heart attack in question actually happened. That's what people are offended by.

I myself don't care about the heart attack, but that there are many better ways to convey edginess than going this route that makes them appear low brow. Also, couldn't they have put some time in between this angle and the heart attack? My God, his first appearance back and they're making it into an angle. That just screams exploitation. "Gotta strike while the iron is hot!"

The issue is-where do we draw the line? "Eddie is in Hell" was incredibly offensive because he died. Vickie probably gave the OK for the story. Why is that so bad but this isn't? At the same time, this plays off a real life situation. Katie Vick was totally made up, but that was also incredibly offensive. What are the parameters for what is and isn't offensive? Its all personal choice it seems, but are there guidelines for what is unanimously considered offensive?



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post #808 of 833 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 03:38 PM
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Re: Punk & Heyman mocking King's heart attack

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So the whole crux of the argument seems to be "Lawler didn't die, therefore its not as big a deal." I fail to see how that makes it OK, myself. If someone gets cancer and survives, does that suddenly mean its cool to rip on them?

Most of the time in storytelling, they might use an issue like a heart attack as a plot point, but because its a fictitious heart attack they're talking about, its seen as fine. In this case its different because the heart attack in question actually happened. That's what people are offended by.

I myself don't care about the heart attack, but that there are many better ways to convey edginess than going this route that makes them appear low brow. Also, couldn't they have put some time in between this angle and the heart attack? My God, his first appearance back and they're making it into an angle. That just screams exploitation. "Gotta strike while the iron is hot!"

The issue is-where do we draw the line? "Eddie is in Hell" was incredibly offensive because he died. Vickie probably gave the OK for the story. Why is that so bad but this isn't? At the same time, this plays off a real life situation. Katie Vick was totally made up, but that was also incredibly offensive. What are the parameters for what is and isn't offensive? Its all personal choice it seems, but are there guidelines for what is unanimously considered offensive?
I wouldn't say that it isn't a big deal at all. The fact that Lawler fell to a heart attack is a big deal and the fact that he got well enough to return is also a big deal. It's a blessing that he pulled through. It isn't okay to make fun of someone who suffered a heart attack, the same can be said about someone who recovered from cancer, but it's hard for me to feel any offense towards it outside of the show because this was done with Lawler's consent. I won't call someone a pussy for being seriously offended by this segment because people take things in differently than others, but I still disagree that this crossed the line.

I never saw it as exploitation so much as a way to shock people and it worked. I'm sure that the angle could have worked with some time put into it before the mocking, but the fact that it happened on an emotional return gave more fuel to Punk's villainous juvenile heel character.

As far as the "Eddie is in hell" bit, I wasn't watching wrestling when that happened. However as disrespectful as that statement would be if Orton voiced it outside of the show non-kayfabe, it happened within the show. A fictional character said something hateful and disrespectful towards another character within a story. The words were said, but there was no truth to them as far as reality goes. To me, at least, the real world event doesn't even take precedent because everyone involved with the WWE mourned Eddie on his tribute. I feel the same way about Lawler's heart attack.

I'm sure that in time the WWE will be able to produce more elaborate angles to fit yours and others' tastes, but I thought that this was a good way for the company to start in a new and possibly better direction.

Last edited by Cala♡; 11-16-2012 at 05:47 PM.
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post #809 of 833 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 04:13 PM
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Re: Punk & Heyman mocking King's heart attack

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Why do people still think ratings are relevant in the era of the internet?
They are. If ratings don't matter then explain how they are going to promote themselves to an audience otherwise? Only Punk marks that try to cover up for the fact he's a failure on that front or defenders of today's terrible environment try to argue against it.
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post #810 of 833 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 04:19 PM
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Re: Punk & Heyman mocking King's heart attack

The ratings should only matter to WWE employees.

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