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Ziggler Getting A World Title Feud Before Kofi

11K views 151 replies 87 participants last post by  Bighead 
#1 ·
It's a complete joke.

  • In the last 6 months Ziggler has been nowhere near as successful as a heel as Kofi has been as a face for the last year.
  • Ziggler relied on Vickie
  • Kofi has held his own on Raw (The A show)
 
#4 ·
It's completely fair, Ziggler is a much much much better worker than Kofi. Unlike that stupid Jamaican spot monkey, Ziggler can wrestle really well not just jump really high and run around like an idiot
 
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#9 ·
1. Kofi is from Ghana not Jamaica

2. If you're talking about ability, Alberto Del Rio & Cody Rhodes deserve a shot before Ziggler.

3. I'm talking about build-up & overness - where Kofi wins both times
 
#23 ·
Ziggler fully deserves his push. The man has shown phenomenal improvement over the course of 2010, and should be rewarded for that. However, he should NOT have gotten a push before Kofi. Not because of talent, but because Kofi has been deserving of a push for more than a year now. Kofi has been one of the most over superstars on both Raw and Smackdown for a long time, and WWE has totally misused him. Some say he's not a good talker. Well, when was the last time you heard him cut a promo? WWE doesn't give Kofi an opportunity to speak. (And Ziggler isn't a good talker either. Why do you think they stuck him with Vickie?)

WWE has also done a horrible job of giving the audience a reason to care about Kofi, which makes his overness even more amazing. Kofi has been given no personality beyond "Generic Face No.1," and that's a giant misstep by WWE creative.
 
#26 ·
Ziggler fully deserves his push. The man has shown phenomenal improvement over the course of 2010, and should be rewarded for that. However, he should NOT have gotten a push before Kofi. Not because of talent, but because Kofi has been deserving of a push for more than a year now. Kofi has been one of the most over superstars on both Raw and Smackdown for a long time, and WWE has totally misused him. Some say he's not a good talker. Well, when was the last time you heard him cut a promo? WWE doesn't give Kofi an opportunity to speak. (And Ziggler isn't a good talker either. Why do you think they stuck him with Vickie?)
WWE has also done a horrible job of giving the audience a reason to care about Kofi, which makes his overness even more amazing. Kofi has been given no personality beyond "Generic Face No.1," and that's a giant misstep by WWE creative.
Because his character was going nowhere. Might as well stick him with the most over heel in WWE history (yeah, I just said that). He isnt the greatest talker but he isnt bad.
 
#50 ·
People keep saying it, some like to deny it, but Ziggler is the full package. He's had one hell of a slow push that actually helped him become credible and allowing him to show off his skills on more than one occasion, skills that are deserving of a world title match. Say what you want, but I have NEVER seen a boring match with Ziggler in the ring, and that's not because of some flashy moves or jumping around like they do at the circus, it is because he actually has a more than generous move set that others simply lack.

Combine his excellent in ring skills with his look, charisma and comfort he shows every time on the mic to get a wrestler worthy of greatness. Face it, the guy is here to stay!
 
#65 ·
Lot at Kofi showing personality and being better on the mic than Ziggler, just lol ... I have never heard a Kofi promo that isn't cringe worthy and regarding charisma personally I think he has that of a wooden plank. Having the midcard belt for the thousand time is definitely the highlight of he's career, don't know if he will ever get further than that.
 
#72 ·
Here's the real problem, and it's one that a lot of people in this thread, especially Ziggler defenders, can't seem to grasp.

This isn't about who's more talented. This isn't about who deserves a push more. This is about Ziggler, the current WWE flavor of the month, getting the kind of push in 2010 that Kofi should've already gotten, if not in 2009, then 2010. All Kofi needs to get him to the top is a memorable IC run, and a character. Now, it's been two friggin' years since Kofi first proved that he was at least worth a try, and the WWE can't even manage to do that. Yet they can give Ziggler that kind of push, when he wasn't even halfway at the level of Kofi when his push started. Dolph was a nobody without Vickie, and that's fact, whether his fans choose to admit it or not. A complete non-factor. Yet, like I said before, he gets the push that Kofi deserved when Dolph was still introducing himself to everyone on the roster.

I'm a Ziggler fan. He's a great talent. I'm a Kofi fan. He's a great talent. Kofi should've gotten his push before Ziggler. That's fact, bottom line, end of story. Talent has absolutely nothing to do with it. All this situation proves is that the hotshot, "we push who we want" mentality of WWE creative is alive and well.
 
#111 ·
Kofi did get pushed. He beat Punk and Orton at Survivor Series. He then botched multiple times with main eventers. Remember the multiple botches with Orton? His botch with Big Show? His botch with Batista, making him bleed?

I'm sorry but Kofi had his chance. When you botch with different MAIN EVENTERS, you're screwed. Botching is much different than having a lot of sucky matches like the Miz and Barrett have. Kofi literally messes up, or at least used to, against MAIN EVENTERS.

I truly believe Kofi would've been a world champion by now, if he didn't botch so much in early 2010 against the veterans. It would've been remarkable because Vince hardly ever gives a world title to a black person. Yet, in 2009, it was damn clear that Vince wanted Kofi to be a champion.

Kofi choked in 2010. However, I wouldn't be surprised if people backstage are willing to give Kofi a second chance in 2011/2012. He showed much improvement, while remaining over, on Smackdown.

Ring-talent does matter if they are really great. Ziggler had a MOTYC against DB in 2010. Although DB has great matches with everyone, DB had his best match against Ziggler. Both men had their best match against each other, and both men are getting pushed too.

Also Ziggler vs Edge just makes sense at the RR. RR is the ppv where Vince likes to tryout potential main eventers (Holly, Henry, Hardy, Edge, Sheamus, Kennedy). Edge had a relationship with Vickie. Ziggler has a relationship with Vickie. Why the fuck should it be Edge vs Kofi at RR? A white vs black feud? :confused:

tl;dr Kofi choked; Ziggler vs Edge is logical.
 
#94 ·
Kofi sloppy argument is horseshit and wrong and presented from a narrow mindset that refuses to be educated or let go a series of mistakes long ago that have not been repeated in consistency or level of fuck up ness since. Capoeria...Eddy from Tekken. Learn it, people. He ain't sloppy, botchy, or anything like that. He just has a fighting style that is motion based. Oh boo fucking hoo. The guy king of the midcard along with DBD. Notice something? Highest technique, lack of storyline. Give Kofi a story. Keep him away from Orton (for history;s sake if nothing else) Hell, maybe he goes after ADR when he takes the B (A is marketing, B is nsupposed to be wrestling) show belt. The guy gets over with what little is given to him. And constantly. The fact that people can't respect or take note of that really makes me question where they are coming from. And in the end the answers never look too good.
 
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#112 ·
Dolph Ziggler SUCKS. If not for Vickie Guerrero and Danielson making him look better than he's ever looked in his career in those 3 matches, no one here would give a fuck about him.

Kofi SHOULD of been pushed to the upper midcard after the Orton thing but he got buried and apparently fans around here are almost gleeful he did. You gotta love when the fans love seeing the business fail for almost no reason. It's hilarious.
 
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#114 · (Edited)
Sometimes it comes down to how other wrestlers view you. If you may be considered dangerous (like Mr Anderson), or make you look bad, if they have more influence with Vince they can get you pushed down. After all, if your top talent gets injured, or loses luster, it affects the bottom line. Better to lose a midcarder, than a top guy.

That's what happened to Kofi - wrestling politics concerned with safety and making the top talent look good. He failed, but I believe Kofi is slowly re-gaining credibility with WWE management.

You just have to look at the whole of the WWE concerns with safety and giving a good product overall, than individual wrestlers.

Oh, and PS

Ziggler rocks.
 
#113 ·
This is one humorously heated and circular thread. Why's Ziggler getting a World Heavyweight Championship opportunity before Kofi Kingston at The Royal Rumble? It's pretty simple.

The World Heavyweight Champion, Edge, is a face.

Kofi Kingston is a face.

Dolph Ziggler is a heel.

Dolph Ziggler is managed/kayfabe-screwed by Vickie Guerrero.

Vickie Guerrero is Edge's ex.

They're pushing Dolph at the moment, but it's a test run.

As a general rule, you don't want your big momentous first-time-ever world championship shot to be at The Royal Rumble, if you're looking to win.

The storyline is there, it's an easy job for creative to piece it together. Just watch, the promos will mostly be Vickie vs. Edge, with Ziggler as the former's proxy.

Kofi needs to drop the Intercontinental Championship to Jack Swagger in one of the first-hour matches at The Royal Rumble, then win the 'Rumble match. Kofi should eliminate Alberto Del Rio, who's made it his quest to win the thing. Del Rio takes the WHC from Edge when Christian turns on Edge at Elimination Chamber ala Matt/Jeff 'Rumble '09. Christian/Edge, non-title (they could redo it next year with Christian as a face for the title in Toronto), Kofi/ADR for the WHC, if they really want to make seriously big stars out of these guys, then in at least a couple of instances they need to go all the way. The Money in the Bank institution, with no less than three briefcases a year, is a monster that Luger-izes first-time champions--Jack Swagger has Mt. Everest to climb if he wants the fans to take him serious at the top of the card and as a champion. It's time to do it the right way again.

Then they can turn Dolph face against Vickie, who puts a bounty on him in the Wrestlemania MITB match so the odds are against him. Anyone who takes him out earns perks and privileges from the #2 force on Smackdown, so you've got numerous heels looking for that as gravy on the briefcase mashed potatoes along the way.

Also, as an aside, comparing Ziggler and Kofi in-ring against each other is highly difficult. You're talking about a kinetic, energetic babyface who utilizes martial arts and Capoeira within his frame of reference, frequently flying off the top turnbuckle and going for big spots to hit within the ebb and flow of the story of each match, and in the other case you have a guy with one of the most expansive signature move-sets in WWE who incorporates old-school grappling psychology and indy-influenced, pretty awesome chain-wrestling ability (one reason he could hang so brilliantly with Danielson back at Bragging Rights). One guy's a classic babyface, the other guy's a classic heel. Each guy incorporates mannerisms, movements, timing tricks, episodic shows specifically for the crowd between spots, and making the spots as fluid and organically at one with the overall story of the match entire. You can see it in the Kofi/Ziggler matches. They complement each other very well. Don't see how Kofi can be derided or dismissed as a "spot monkey," either, seeing as he's had an assortment of very fine matches with a great variety of opponents in the past calendar year, ranging from Sheamus to Drew McIntyre to Dolph Ziggler to Jack Swagger and several others, all of whom present at least considerably distinguishing characteristics from one another, and the matches have all been substantially different from one another within each series of bouts with a given opponent. For instance, each one of Kofi's matches with Swagger has told a remarkably different story from the others previous. On some occasions, Swagger is fiercely dominant; on others, the battle is more 50/50, and on still one or two others, Kofi is the more aggressive party, but they all tell very intricate and complex stories, and require the old cliche of two to tango rather than one of the workers being a "spot monkey," which would naturally and consequently limit the luster of the matches.
 
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#115 · (Edited)
I agree with almost everything you wrote, except for this part:

One guy's a classic babyface, the other guy's a classic heel.
Wether someone is a "classic face/heel" is completely in the eye of the beholder. There is no such thing as classic faces or classic heels, in my opinion. This is a trap most story-tellers fall into, and most stories for kids fail to acknowledge. Every character, protagonist or antagonist, should be a multi-layered character, because that´s what everyone of us is. The WWE creative seems to think that "over the top" and "larger than life" equals flat, and I think this preconceived notion of "classic face/heel" is the main reason for that. I also believe that ignoring this concept was the main reason for the success of the attitude era, not blood and swearing.

When a character reaches a certain point, he has to turn. And that´s not when he starts getting pops, see Exhibit A, Randy Orton, but when the story/his character demand it. I´m still convinced that both, Kofi and Dolph, need a turn, despite WWE seemingly going away from the idea of turning Ziggler.

[/OFF-TOPIC]
 
#18 ·
I do agree that Kofi doesn't full on botch most of the time, but his ring skills just look so sloppy most of the time, as if he's drunk or something, plus he can't sell like a babyface should in the ring, all of this definitely has a negative impact on whatever match he's wrestling in.
 
#21 ·
When I personally said that I didn't exactly mean that he FULL ON botches all the time, but more as a combination of Full On Botches + The Sloppiness to make him overall come off as one of the botchiest.

Wrestling while being drunk is a great way to describe him. It seems his finisher rarley ever connects, the dude is always slipping and not jumping high enough. I mean I could name a bunch of stand out botches/sloppy moments that happened in his feud against Orton alone that you couldn't help but notice.

Almost slips after slamming the bucket(3:18)


Almost slips off the rail(7:00)


Is late to coming out


And of course the infamous...
 
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