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Old 10-08-2013, 09:52 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

I'm sure a thread has been made about this already, but I don't feel like searching for it.

A lot of people like to talk about how Wrestlemania 17 was the best Wrestlemania of all time. I honestly can't see how. It was an excellent PPV, don't get me wrong. And it had a lot of great matches. But there's one Wrestlemania that I always thought was one huge step above Wrestlemania 17, to the point where it's pretty much a no brainer for me. And that was Wrestlemania 19.

For those of you who aren't familiar with Wrestlemania 19, these were some of the main matches that were featured on the card.

Brock Lesnar vs Kurt Angle for the WWE Championship, The Rock vs Steve Austin III, Chris Jericho vs Shawn Michaels, Mr McMahon vs Hulk Hogan, Booker T vs Triple H for the World Heavyweight Championship.

All of these matches were at least entertaining, and four of them were great-incredible matches. But that isn't where it ends. Also featured on the card was a very short but definitely fun and good opener between Matt Hardy and Rey Mysterio for the Cruiserweight Championship, a surprisingly great handicap match between Undertaker and both the Big Show and A-Train (I think?), probably the greatest Divas match ever between Trish Stratus, Victoria, and Jazz, and a triple threat tag team match between Team Angle (Hass and Benjamen), Los Guerreros, and Rhino and Benoit, a match that was stock piled with nonstop action, and incredible pacing.

I just don't understand how Wrestlemania 17 beats out this card. Here's my view on Wrestlemania 17.

I will first start out with its positives. Jericho/Regal, Benoit/Angle, TLC, Rock/Austin II, these were all great matches. I enjoyed them, and Wrestlemania 17 as I said before was definitely a great event. But...

The first thing I'll start out with what Wrestlemania 17 didn't have: consistency. Wrestlemania 19 was outstanding from the start to the finish, with arguably no bad matches on the card. With Wrestlemania 17, that wasn't the case. You had a lousy squash match for the divas title, a sloppy and pointless six man tag match, a hardcore title match that others might enjoy, but I just don't enjoy (it was a good and creative match don't get me wrong, just not a big fan of that kind of wrestling). McMahon vs McMahon was just terrible in all ways, there was little to no story told by either of them (just random action and Linda walking on in of course to kick Vince in the balls), there was nothing about it that wowed me, it was everything I expected. That idiotic gimmick battle royal was pointless.

Then there's Triple H vs Undertaker. This is the match I have my biggest complaint about. Not only was there a very poorly told story here (the ref got knocked out for too long to the point where it just became very stupid, the chokeslam onto the outside was a very pointless spot and not to mention you didn't even get to see the impact). Both men are much better than this and instead all we got from them was a very lazy and slow paced match with little to no innovation.

I think Austin/Rock II is one of the most overrated matches of all time. It was better than their Wrestlemania 19 match, but I can't see how anyone can pick that match over Jericho/Michaels or Lesnar/Angle (a match that suffered from having an injured Angle and a nervous Lesnar who was off a lot of times with his timing), with these matches you had more innovation, you had much better wrestling, and quite frankly, both of the endings to these matches beat the shit out of the ending to Austin/Rock II. I loved the heel turn, but a bunch of chair shots and just like that Austin pins Rock? Just no. Brilliant turn, but horrible finish. Wrestlemania 17 did however have the best match out of all with the TLC match.

So with Wrestlemania 19, imo, all the matches were great (besides McMahon/Hogan, but even then you had a great story told there despite horrible pacing and sloppy in ring work, something McMahon/McMahon lacked), you had excellent consistency, a lot of incredible matches and moments, easily a much better undercard and a much better main event card, so can someone please tell me how Wrestlemania 17 could be better than Wrestlemania 19? I see all these people who make those claims, but I just can't see how 17 could beat 19 out. Any other Wrestlemania absolutely, but 19 in my book blows 17 out of the water. So please, explain to me why you guys think 17 beats out 19.
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:31 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

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All of these matches were at least entertaining, and four of them were great-incredible matches. But that isn't where it ends. Also featured on the card was a very short but definitely fun and good opener between Matt Hardy and Rey Mysterio for the Cruiserweight Championship, a surprisingly great handicap match between Undertaker and both the Big Show and A-Train (I think?), probably the greatest Divas match ever between Trish Stratus, Victoria, and Jazz, and a triple threat tag team match between Team Angle (Hass and Benjamen), Los Guerreros, and Rhino and Benoit, a match that was stock piled with nonstop action, and incredible pacing. I just don't understand how Wrestlemania 17 beats out this card. Here's my view on Wrestlemania 17.
Okay, let's do this.

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I will first start out with its positives. Jericho/Regal, Benoit/Angle, TLC, Rock/Austin II, these were all great matches. I enjoyed them, and Wrestlemania 17 as I said before was definitely a great event. But...
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The first thing I'll start out with what Wrestlemania 17 didn't have: consistency. Wrestlemania 19 was outstanding from the start to the finish, with arguably no bad matches on the card.
This here is your first mistake.

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With Wrestlemania 17, that wasn't the case. You had a lousy squash match for the divas title,
A bathroom break every Wrestlemania needs.

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a sloppy and pointless six man tag match,
Sloppy means slow and lots of botches, which isn't true in the case of the six man tag match.

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Originally Posted by TheGMofGods View Post
a hardcore title match that others might enjoy, but I just don't enjoy (it was a good and creative match don't get me wrong, just not a big fan of that kind of wrestling).
Back and forth triple threat with brilliant use of the surrounding and weapons. Definitely good entertainment there.

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McMahon vs McMahon was just terrible in all ways, there was little to no story told by either of them (just random action and Linda walking on in of course to kick Vince in the balls), there was nothing about it that wowed me, it was everything I expected. That idiotic gimmick battle royal was pointless.
The battle royal was amusing to watch if you don't take it seriously. And Shane vs Vince is still Vince's best Wrestlemania match ever so I don't know why you called there were only random actions.

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Then there's Triple H vs Undertaker. This is the match I have my biggest complaint about. Not only was there a very poorly told story here (the ref got knocked out for too long to the point where it just became very stupid, the chokeslam onto the outside was a very pointless spot and not to mention you didn't even get to see the impact). Both men are much better than this and instead all we got from them was a very lazy and slow paced match with little to no innovation.
Again, wrong. Unless you were referring to their WM 27 match that was indeed slow and lazy, you must be joking. Back and forth brawl from start to finish that went all over the arena with great crowds involvement. It's still the best Taker/HHH match of all time. If the spots, as you said it, were pointless, then the crowds surrounding them wouldn't be so crazy about them, would they?

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I think Austin/Rock II is one of the most overrated matches of all time. It was better than their Wrestlemania 19 match, but I can't see how anyone can pick that match over Jericho/Michaels or Lesnar/Angle (a match that suffered from having an injured Angle and a nervous Lesnar who was off a lot of times with his timing), with these matches you had more innovation, you had much better wrestling, and quite frankly, both of the endings to these matches beat the shit out of the ending to Austin/Rock II. I loved the heel turn, but a bunch of chair shots and just like that Austin pins Rock? Just no. Brilliant turn, but horrible finish. Wrestlemania 17 did however have the best match out of all with the TLC match.
I'm sorry, but this is the biggest mistake in your post. Bret/Shawn at WM 12 and Flair/Shawn at WM 24 are infinitely more overrated than Rock/Austin II which is not overrated at all. It's the best WWE title match of all time, so dunno why anybody would rate Lesnar/Angle or Jericho/HBK above it to begin with. As if a finish by a roll up isn't stupider than chairshots.

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So with Wrestlemania 19, imo, all the matches were great (besides McMahon/Hogan, but even then you had a great story told there despite horrible pacing and sloppy in ring work, something McMahon/McMahon lacked), you had excellent consistency, a lot of incredible matches and moments, easily a much better undercard and a much better main event card, so can someone please tell me how Wrestlemania 17 could be better than Wrestlemania 19?
This post is so wrong it's unbelievable, but I'll try anyway:

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Originally Posted by TheGMofGods View Post
(besides McMahon/Hogan, but even then you had a great story told there despite horrible pacing and sloppy in ring work, something McMahon/McMahon lacked)
You're contradicting yourself here. A great story cannot be told with horrible pacing and sloppy in ring work, honey.

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you had excellent consistency


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Originally Posted by TheGMofGods View Post
a lot of incredible matches and moments,
Which WM 17 have more of.

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easily a much better undercard
1. Rey/Matt in a 5 minutes opening match nobody cared about.
2. The Streak vs A Motherfucking Train in a below average match nobody but Vince cared about (since A-Train was his pet project). Any notion that this match is better than Taker/HHH I is beyond nuts.
3. Okay, the divas match is better here. I'll give u that.
4. A tag team championship that wasted too many talents (Benjamin, Benoit, Eddie) in a needless match. Should have booked matched like Taker/Benoit or Taker/Eddie.

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Originally Posted by TheGMofGods View Post
and a much better main event card
WM 19 only had 2 great matches in total: Jericho/HBK and Lesnar/Angle.

WM 17 had 7 great matches: Y2J/Regal, Kane/Raven/Big Show/TLC II, Benoit/Angle, Taker/HHH I, Vince/Shane, and Rock/Austin II.

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so can someone please tell me how Wrestlemania 17 could be better than Wrestlemania 19?
Consider yourself enlightened.

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I see all these people who make those claims, but I just can't see how 17 could beat 19 out. Any other Wrestlemania absolutely, but 19 in my book blows 17 out of the water. So please, explain to me why you guys think 17 beats out 19.
Now you see why 17 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 19.
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:55 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

WM17 was way better than WM19.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:00 AM   #4 (permalink)
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WM 17 was better. Now, don't get me wrong WM 19 was great as well, but I feel the main event was disappointing. Lesnar/Angle had better matches than the one they had at WM. Both their ironman and summerslam match were better.

Austin/Rock WM 17 = greatest wwe championship match ever.

And honestly id put that TLC match over anything at WM 19 as well.... Just edging out HBK/Jericho

Taker/HHH WM 17 is ridiculously underrated as well.


Both manias are in my top 5

1. WM 17
2. WM 24
3. WM 21
4. WM 19
5. WM 14
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

I hated WMXIX to be honest. I just don't understand all the love. HBK/Jericho and Rock/Austin III are the only two matches I've gone back and watched and enjoy.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

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Sloppy means slow and lots of botches, which isn't true in the case of the six man tag match.
A match can still be sloppy without botches. Just watch Taylor Whilde's matches (I think I spelled her last name wrong).

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Back and forth triple threat with brilliant use of the surrounding and weapons. Definitely good entertainment there.
Again, this was just out of pure taste, I won't argue against that one.

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The battle royal was amusing to watch if you don't take it seriously. And Shane vs Vince is still Vince's best Wrestlemania match ever so I don't know why you called there were only random actions.
Hogan vs McMahon at least had a good story going with it and in a way we saw things that we wouldn't expect out of it. Vince vs Shane was too predictable, and there for, I couldn't get too into it.

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Again, wrong. Unless you were referring to their WM 27 match that was indeed slow and lazy, you must be joking. Back and forth brawl from start to finish that went all over the arena with great crowds involvement. It's still the best Taker/HHH match of all time. If the spots, as you said it, were pointless, then the crowds surrounding them wouldn't be so crazy about them, would they?
Taker and Triple H are better than this. They don't need to resort to garbage wrestling (and very bad garbage wrestling btw) to put on a great match. And that match does not beat out their HIAC match. Not by a mile I don't see how anyone could claim otherwise.

And their match at WM 27 was anything but lazy. You actually saw effort being put on by both guys in that match, which was not the case in their WM 17 match. If you think otherwise, then I just don't get what match you were watching.

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I'm sorry, but this is the biggest mistake in your post. Bret/Shawn at WM 12 and Flair/Shawn at WM 24 are infinitely more overrated than Rock/Austin II which is not overrated at all. It's the best WWE title match of all time, so dunno why anybody would rate Lesnar/Angle or Jericho/HBK above it to begin with. As if a finish by a roll up isn't stupider than chairshots.
It can't be a mistake. It's my own opinion, and it's a matter of personal taste. People make it out to be one of the all time greatest Wrestlemania matches ever, but I don't understand how or why. It simply isn't. If you think it is, that's fine, but explain why you think that's the case.

Here's my argument.

It is not the best WWE title match of all time. To state otherwise is a freakin joke. No one claims that Flair/Michaels is the greatest match of all time. But was it a great match? Hell yes it was. Was Bret/Shawn a great match? Yes it was. No one makes claim that their match was the greatest of all time (...do they? If so then wow).

Austin vs Rock II was two guys using each others finishers with little to no creativity beforehand. I've seen a lot of people make complaints about Rock/Cena that easily apply to Rock/Austin.

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You're contradicting yourself here. A great story cannot be told with horrible pacing and sloppy in ring work, honey.
First, don't call me honey. Second, yes it actually can. You do know what storytelling means right?

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How the hell did they not have excellent consistency? Please, tell me how. I'd love to hear this one.

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Which WM 17 have more of.
Really? Please, name the 8 matches, I'd love to see them.

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1. Rey/Matt in a 5 minutes opening match nobody cared about.
2. The Streak vs A Motherfucking Train in a below average match nobody but Vince cared about (since A-Train was his pet project). Any notion that this match is better than Taker/HHH I is beyond nuts.
3. Okay, the divas match is better here. I'll give u that.
4. A tag team championship that wasted too many talents (Benjamin, Benoit, Eddie) in a needless match. Should have booked matched like Taker/Benoit or Taker/Eddie.
1. A lot of people cared about that match. You can't just make these kinds of things up. Come on now.
2. Never claimed it was better than Taker/HHH, but it was definitely a much more entertaining bout than anticipated and you cannot deny that.
3. Of course it was.
4. Now you're just making excuses here. I made the claim it was a great match with nonstop action and great pacing. If you are going to deny that just because it had great talent, then I honestly don't know what more to say to you.

So basically I see a lot of excuses here but what I don't see is anything that would dereail my points regarding what I thought of the matches themselves. I said they were all good to great matches, and all you did was refer to things outside of those matches to state otherwise. That isn't really proving anything.

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WM 19 only had 2 great matches in total: Jericho/HBK and Lesnar/Angle.
This is a matter of opinion honestly, but I can't see how you can call Regal/Jericho a great match but not Austin/Rock III, Booker/HHH, the Triple Threat Tag Match, or Hardy/Mysterio. All of these matches are easily better. Jericho/Regal was entertaining don't get me wrong, but it wasn't anything special and it certainly doesn't qualify as a "great" match .

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Now you see why 17 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 19.
No, now I'm just more confused than I was before. How can you say with a straight face that Jericho/Regal is better than Booker/HHH or The Triple Threat Tag match? I just can't comprehend that logic.
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Oh A Swagger push? Give it 3 hours and he'll be behind bars again. This time around it will be for driving while firing a rocket launcher from atop a tank into an orphanage full of down syndrome kids waiting for Cena for their make-a-wish.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:25 AM   #7 (permalink)
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WM17 was way better than WM19.
An argument for how and why would be nice.

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WM 17 was better. Now, don't get me wrong WM 19 was great as well, but I feel the main event was disappointing. Lesnar/Angle had better matches than the one they had at WM. Both their ironman and summerslam match were better.
It was a great match but definitely could've been better. According to Angle, Lesnar was having a lot of problems with the timing during the match, and also felt the need to rush certain spots when in reality they had plenty of time to drag things out. And then after the botched SSP spot, they needed to end the match right there.

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Austin/Rock WM 17 = greatest wwe championship match ever.

And honestly id put that TLC match over anything at WM 19 as well.... Just edging out HBK/Jericho
Okay, Austin/Rock most certainly isn't the best WWE championship match ever. You could argue it was the best WM main event match ever, but that's going a little too far.

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Taker/HHH WM 17 is ridiculously underrated as well.
How? What is it about that match that people find so entertaining? I cannot for the life of me figure it out.
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Oh A Swagger push? Give it 3 hours and he'll be behind bars again. This time around it will be for driving while firing a rocket launcher from atop a tank into an orphanage full of down syndrome kids waiting for Cena for their make-a-wish.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:45 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Vince vs Shane was too predictable, and there for, I couldn't get too into it.
I guess you predicted the first ever Coast to Coast performed in a WWF ring then?
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:51 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

You forgot about the Miller Lite Catfight Girls. But seriously that was one of my favorite WM. Disappointing to have HHH vs Booker T tbh. I did love the Lesnar shooting star on Angle.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:53 AM   #10 (permalink)
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An argument for how and why would be nice.



It was a great match but definitely could've been better. According to Angle, Lesnar was having a lot of problems with the timing during the match, and also felt the need to rush certain spots when in reality they had plenty of time to drag things out. And then after the botched SSP spot, they needed to end the match right there.



Okay, Austin/Rock most certainly isn't the best WWE championship match ever. You could argue it was the best WM main event match ever, but that's going a little too far.



How? What is it about that match that people find so entertaining? I cannot for the life of me figure it out.


Please name a better wwe championship match than Austin/Rock
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