WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read) - Page 11 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, ROH, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 10-19-2013, 12:22 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

Just look at the card for WrestleMania 19 (I believe it's the best ever, OP)

Matt/Rey was probably the best anyone in the world could do with 5-6 minutes. Very fun match although the wrong man went over.

Taker Vs Big Show and A-Train was decent for a quick under card match. Makes Taker look awesome, Jones gets over a little and you get two big stars and their proteges on the card

Trish Vs Victoria Vs Jazz was also okay. Designated pee break match because it was for the Women's Championship but for the people that stuck around they got an above average womens match.

Team Angle Vs Los Guerreros Vs Chris Benoit and Rhyno was pretty decent as well for 8 minutes they really did a lot and really did entertain

Shawn Michaels Vs Chris Jericho is your first of FIVE main events and it was an amazing match with a great story line. Perfect moment at the end where they hug and Jericho kicks him low. Amazing.

Booker T Vs Triple H probably wasn't the biggest main event they could of gone with here but Booker was pretty over and the fans wanted him to win badly. This is probably your weakest of the main events and it was still very very good.

McMahon Vs Hogan was a great brawl and it was Vince really doing what he does best. Hulk kicked his ass and Hulk definitely needed more matches like this back in 2003 instead of proper wrestling matches. A great brawl and one of McMahon's best matches ever in my opinion.

Austin Vs Rock was great as well for what was basically a semi active guy Vs a non wrestler at that point. Definitely a sports entertainment style match but I really enjoyed this one as well

Angle Vs Lesnar was good I have a feeling I'd like it more if I was into long matches but they did well and really went all out. I think this match proved Lesnar could be "the guy" and also proved it for Angle also.

Basically it's the greatest Mania of all time. You have almost every major star in the history of wrestling. You have a top to bottom card of at least "above average" matches. The only thing I can fault it for is the Miller Lite girls thing but that was a waste of maybe 5 minutes max so it doesn't hurt the show at all.

XIX is my number 1. 17 is my number 2 and 20 is my number 3.
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:22 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pied Piper View Post
Face it, Taker vs A-Train/Show was poor booking. It was meant to catapult Albert to the main event level but obviously people did not take him seriously enough. It wasn't about making Taker looked strong, it was about Vince jerking off to yet another talentless big man.
Nah, it was actually suppose to give Nathan Jones a rub tagging with Taker at the biggest PPV of the year since WWE saw something in Nathan Jones for whatever reason but since WWE realized that Nathan Jones wasn't ready at all, WWE decided to make it a Handicap match at the last minute.

And I disagree with you on A-Train. He was far from being a talentless big man. In fact, his in-ring work in 2003 is REALLY, really solid and overlooked by many people.
Quote:
Taker should have faced Eddie at WM 19. If he were going to face a mid-carder, might as well fought a good one. I mean, after all, we both knew where Eddie ended up before his death, right? You know, the place Albert is still fighting for 10 years after he was added to The Streak.
As much as I am a fan of Eddie Guerrero, booking him against The Undertaker at WrestleMania 19 wouldn't have made sense since he was in a tag team with Chavo Guerrero prior to WrestleMania 19. I don't think WWE saw anything in Eddie until he started getting insanely over with his Cheat 2 Win gimmick.

They should have done Show vs Taker at WrestleMania 19 IMO. Another match they could have done was Benoit vs Taker instead of wasting Benoit in a filler tag match at the WrestleMania 19 PPV.
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Old 10-19-2013, 03:27 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

The Pied Piper is underrating the handicap match imo since it's actually decent. But I do agree that Undertaker deserved a better match that year. Still don't understand why they booked this mess involving Nathan Jones while Benoit (who was free of any feuds after Angle moved on to Lesnar) was randomly inserted into the tag team match. At least Eddie and RVD had actual tag feuds going on, Benoit just randomly recruited Rhyno and they were added to the tag title match.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:24 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

I've already agreed with the OP. However, in terms of making the show even better, I would have loved to see this:

WWE Cruiserweight Championship
Rey Mysterio vs Matt Hardy (c)
(give them 5 minutes extra)

TLC - WWE Tag Team Championships
Los Guerreros vs Team Angle (c) vs Kane & RVD vs Rhyno + Booker T

WWE Women's Championship
Trish Stratus vs Victoria (c) vs Jazz

The Streak
Chris Benoit vs The Undertaker

Open Challenge
Big Show vs Goldberg
(surprise debut, short match, impressive Jackhammer to finish it off)

Grudge Match
Shawn Michaels vs Chris Jericho

20 Years in the Making
Vince McMahon vs Hulk Hogan

WWE Championship
Brock Lesnar vs Kurt Angle (c)

World Heavyweight Championship - Whoever Gets Pinned Must Retire
Triple H (c) vs The Rock vs Steve Austin [pinned]
(advertised ala "End of an Era", Rock gets his WM moment against the other 2, Austin receives an emotional send-off)
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:44 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBrillBladeTim View Post
I've already agreed with the OP. However, in terms of making the show even better, I would have loved to see this:

WWE Cruiserweight Championship
Rey Mysterio vs Matt Hardy (c)
(give them 5 minutes extra)

TLC - WWE Tag Team Championships
Los Guerreros vs Team Angle (c) vs Kane & RVD vs Rhyno + Booker T

WWE Women's Championship
Trish Stratus vs Victoria (c) vs Jazz

The Streak
Chris Benoit vs The Undertaker

Open Challenge
Big Show vs Goldberg
(surprise debut, short match, impressive Jackhammer to finish it off)

Grudge Match
Shawn Michaels vs Chris Jericho

20 Years in the Making
Vince McMahon vs Hulk Hogan

WWE Championship
Brock Lesnar vs Kurt Angle (c)

World Heavyweight Championship - Whoever Gets Pinned Must Retire
Triple H (c) vs The Rock vs Steve Austin [pinned]
(advertised ala "End of an Era", Rock gets his WM moment against the other 2, Austin receives an emotional send-off)
I'm curious as to how this would've made it better...
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:19 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

a) A TLC match (given at least 15 minutes) would guarantee another **** match
b) Undertaker has a better match, again with **** potential
c) Mysterio and Hardy have more time to put on a great match
d) Goldberg's debut would provide a memorable moment and be better than the catfight (which I would erase to leave time for this)
e) 3 of the 4 best matches are still on the card: the other one has become the triple threat main event. This match would be more original than Rock/Austin 3, equally as entertaining in ring, draw in a bigger buyrate (since it puts the biggest stars in the main event, is different and the culmination of the Attitude era), and be a truly fitting end to Austin's in-ring career

a),b) and e) are the main reasons. I'm surprised I even have to justify this card, to be honest.
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:55 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGMofGods View Post
Please do not waste my time with idiotic statements like this. This is all completely a matter of opinion, there are no facts involved in this. It's about the reasoning behind your opinions that I care about, and so far from what I've seen, not a lot of them have made sense.



The Miller Cat fight was not an official match on the card. If you can't even get simple parts like this right why should I take the rest of your post seriously?

And the Taker match was most certainly not a bad match. It wasn't anything special, but they deserve a lot of credit for managing to make the match itself turn out to be decent.



When was I ever denying any of this? I was talking about the wrestling aspect, NOTHING MORE. That is it. You guys can't bring out all this irrelevant bullshit and expect me to think it makes a difference. It doesn't.



WM 17 had a lot of great wrestling, yes, but for as many good matches, they had almost as many bad or worthless matches, the part you cannot deny. The fact you're trying to make excuses for that pretty much shows that you know I am right. The only thing I have convinced myself of is that, when talking about consistency, WM 19 consistently had better wrestling than WM 17 did, and if you deny that, then you don't understand the concept of the word "consistency". And WM 19 definitely had a shit ton of great wrestling, and imo beats out WM 17 as a whole. The atmosphere of course was better, as was the crowd. And yes they had more important matches. But none of that is relevant to what I am trying to say. If you can't understand that, then I can't help you.
Here's what I gathered from your first post:

"WM 19 is more consistent than WM17 and I preferred the matches on 19 more, so therefore, WM19 is the greatest Wrestlemania."

What an absolute load of shit.

Let's say you're right. WM19 did have the more consistent matches, to the point where everything was roughly on par, so to speak. WM17's lowest points were lower, yes. However, its higher points were a LOT higher. So WM19 was more consistent in ring throughout its matches-17 had all of those things I already listed before that it did better than WM19. However, you just kind of ignore that and stick to that idea that because 19 was better in ring, it was overall better, completely ignoring every other department where 17 is better.

Then you say you're confused why people don't think 19 is the best. People then point it out to you-more important matches, the best matches on the card were way better than those on WM19, better hype, better feuds, more spectacle, etc. You then ignore it and say "but WM19 was more consistent!" So what? At the end of the day, the best matches at WM17 were more memorable and overall considered better by most people than anything on 19, and that's what are going to be more remembered.

Its also ignorant of you to say that Lesnar/Angle and Jericho/Michaels had better wrestling than Rock/Austin? Since when is brawling not wrestling? You're looking at these things from a purely technical aspect. You ignore all of the others like emotion, psychology, storytelling, pacing, build up, etc. Austin's character progression in that one WM match alone is one of the greatest in history, with how he gets increasingly savage and paranoid when Rock won't stay down. His facials become wild and its like he's lost his mind, to the point where he finally snaps. Why is that not good wrestling? Telling a story is one of the most basic parts OF wrestling. And the finish worked absolutely fine-Austin snapped, went ape shit on Rock and beat him into oblivion, which set the tone for just how brutal his run as champion would be. No finesse, no eloquence, just pure rage and violence. Amusing that you also call the finish bad, but defend the finish to Brock/Angle where Brock famously fucked up a big spot and then they had to do a random finish on the fly because Brock had a concussion.

I also find it funny that you say Taker/Hunter, which was a great match, was lazy, slow and not innovative at all, and then have the gall to call Taker vs Big Show/A-Train 'decent'.

I also have a hard time hearing your justifications about why Shane vs Vince was crap, but Hogan vs Vince was great storytelling. Guess you weren't watching at the time because Linda kicking Vince in the balls and the entire fight between them was because Vince was cheating on Linda and keeping her in a comatose state while he threw his affairs into her face, and Shane was defending his mother. Hardly a bad story...


At the end of the day, your whole argument is that WM19 was more consistent. That's all well and good, but the best moments of WM17 thoroughly beat out the consistency of WM19, and that's why its considered better. WM19 was overall good throughout. WM17 was bad at some parts and incredible at others. People will remember and be drawn to the incredible over the consistently good any day of the week.
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Old 10-19-2013, 10:33 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

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Originally Posted by KO Bossy View Post
Here's what I gathered from your first post:

"WM 19 is more consistent than WM17 and I preferred the matches on 19 more, so therefore, WM19 is the greatest Wrestlemania."

What an absolute load of shit.

Let's say you're right. WM19 did have the more consistent matches, to the point where everything was roughly on par, so to speak. WM17's lowest points were lower, yes. However, its higher points were a LOT higher. So WM19 was more consistent in ring throughout its matches-17 had all of those things I already listed before that it did better than WM19. However, you just kind of ignore that and stick to that idea that because 19 was better in ring, it was overall better, completely ignoring every other department where 17 is better.
You obviously haven't read the posts here. EVERYTHING ELSE IS ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT. The quality of the matches and the amount are the ONLY things that matter here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy View Post
Then you say you're confused why people don't think 19 is the best. People then point it out to you-more important matches, the best matches on the card were way better than those on WM19, better hype, better feuds, more spectacle, etc. You then ignore it and say "but WM19 was more consistent!" So what? At the end of the day, the best matches at WM17 were more memorable and overall considered better by most people than anything on 19, and that's what are going to be more remembered.
Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with match quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy View Post
Its also ignorant of you to say that Lesnar/Angle and Jericho/Michaels had better wrestling than Rock/Austin? Since when is brawling not wrestling? You're looking at these things from a purely technical aspect. You ignore all of the others like emotion, psychology, storytelling, pacing, build up, etc.
The technical stand point of it falls into the other categories. I find the Psychology between two technical wrestlers to be a hell of a lot more enjoyable than the psychology between two "brawlers" (I know that isn't what the Rock is, but you get my point). And not to mention, I would easily take the pacing and storytelling from Jericho/Michaels over Rock/Austin. And it isn't ignorant of me to say it had better wrestling. It did have better wrestling. If you deny it you are clueless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy View Post
Amusing that you also call the finish bad, but defend the finish to Brock/Angle where Brock famously fucked up a big spot and then they had to do a random finish on the fly because Brock had a concussion.
When did I ever defend the finish to the Angle/Brock match?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy View Post
I also find it funny that you say Taker/Hunter, which was a great match, was lazy, slow and not innovative at all, and then have the gall to call Taker vs Big Show/A-Train 'decent'.
Because it was lazy, slow and not innovative. It was an entertaining bout that had good enough action and storytelling to make it respectable. Taker vs Show/Train was a match that didn't over rely on pointless spots and weapons, so that's not a very good comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy View Post
I also have a hard time hearing your justifications about why Shane vs Vince was crap, but Hogan vs Vince was great storytelling. Guess you weren't watching at the time because Linda kicking Vince in the balls and the entire fight between them was because Vince was cheating on Linda and keeping her in a comatose state while he threw his affairs into her face, and Shane was defending his mother. Hardly a bad story...
Again, read the comments in the section. You clearly have yet to do so.

I called Linda kicking Vince in the balls "predictable". And I said Shane's random ass kicking of Vince before crashing and burning into the table was "random action". Wanna discuss Shane vs Vince? Prove me wrong on those points please. Oh wait, you can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy View Post
At the end of the day, your whole argument is that WM19 was more consistent. That's all well and good, but the best moments of WM17 thoroughly beat out the consistency of WM19, and that's why its considered better. WM19 was overall good throughout. WM17 was bad at some parts and incredible at others. People will remember and be drawn to the incredible over the consistently good any day of the week.
I am not denying the moments of WM 17, hell I'll go as far as saying that WM 19 didn't really have any moments that could compare to WM 17. But as far as keeping me entertained through out the whole show with outstanding wrestling for the most part, WM 19 doesn't fail to do this. WM 17 does. Do they have a few great matches? You won't hear any disputes from me here, of course they do. I find Austin/Rock to be overrated. That is an opinion of mine that I stand by, but to your credit you've managed to be the first person that actually attempted to make an argument for why it was great. Your argument for its finish I'll admit convinced me to go easy on the finish, but regardless I still can't see the reasoning for the praise it gets.
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Old 10-19-2013, 10:34 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBrillBladeTim View Post
a) A TLC match (given at least 15 minutes) would guarantee another **** match
b) Undertaker has a better match, again with **** potential
c) Mysterio and Hardy have more time to put on a great match
d) Goldberg's debut would provide a memorable moment and be better than the catfight (which I would erase to leave time for this)
e) 3 of the 4 best matches are still on the card: the other one has become the triple threat main event. This match would be more original than Rock/Austin 3, equally as entertaining in ring, draw in a bigger buyrate (since it puts the biggest stars in the main event, is different and the culmination of the Attitude era), and be a truly fitting end to Austin's in-ring career

a),b) and e) are the main reasons. I'm surprised I even have to justify this card, to be honest.
No no you've got it all wrong, I wanted to see what your justification would be for it. I honestly agree but as I said before, I was curious.
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Old 10-20-2013, 12:59 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Default Re: WrestleMania 19: The greatest WrestleMania of all time? (long read)

WM 19 was a letdown if anything. Probably had the greatest assortment of talent in one card yet only two matches really delivered.
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