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Punk 151 48.71%
Lesnar with Heyman 159 51.29%
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:11 PM   #1341 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar - THE BEST VS. THE BEAST

Yeah Brock needs this more than Punk, especially since Brock will get paired with somebody big time at Mania like an Undertaker or Rock. I would love for this rivalry to end at Survivor Series in a team Heyman vs team Punk with the last two being Punk and Lesnar. In between Summerslam and Survivor Series I guess have an Axel vs Punk feud.
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:05 AM   #1342 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar - THE BEST VS. THE BEAST

I'd be fine with Punk losing, but he needs a big win over one of the "big 4" (Rock, Taker, Lesnar, HHH) at some point... or Austin if he ever comes back. But let's just stick with those four in parenthesis and what are the odds Punk will beat 'em:

Rock: No chance (There's just no opening I can foresee, plus it'd be a waste of Rock's time to have him face any man a third time)

Taker: No chance (thought maybe they could've done this for Summerslam if Punk returned as a heel/tweener and then turned into the face character he is now after beating Taker cleanly... but that time has passed, so no chance)

So that leaves Lesnar or HHH. If Punk loses at Summerslam, imo he needs to go to Mania and defeat one of those two. He's beaten Cena, sure, but he hasn't had a "big win" outside of him. That big win over a big star, and main eventing Mania is all that's missing for Punk. If he beats Brock at Summerslam, I say he can just go on to main event Mania next year with Bryan/Orton or Bryan/Cena.

That being said, Lesnar really can't afford the loss, especially if he's not gonna be able to pick up a win between SS and Mania. He'd be going into Mania with a loss. If he's facing Rock, it's not that big of a deal, but if he's facing Taker... well, then it would be unacceptable due to the streak and the fact he'd lose that one for sure.

Ultimately, I think the best scenario is what I've thought since I saw Choke2Death (?) post it. Have Lesnar beat Punk down, with Punk being resilient as fuck, never staying down for a three-count or submitting to the Kimura Lock. Then have Punk lose due to no response or something like that. Of course, a loss like that would pretty much ensure a rematch.
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:29 AM   #1343 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar - THE BEST VS. THE BEAST

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Originally Posted by The Sandrone View Post
I'd be fine with Punk losing, but he needs a big win over one of the "big 4" (Rock, Taker, Lesnar, HHH) at some point... or Austin if he ever comes back. But let's just stick with those four in parenthesis and what are the odds Punk will beat 'em:
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:30 AM   #1344 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar - THE BEST VS. THE BEAST

punk needs to believe in himself or win against lesnar he cannot
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:29 AM   #1345 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar - THE BEST VS. THE BEAST

I used to really want Punk to beat at least one of the big part timers (no, that screwjob ending in that submission match doesn't count, Mr. Krishna. Punk actually looked worse after that match). However, at this point I think he's fine without that big win. Punk only had two big wins in his career, but with those two wins (one of which being virtually negated after he got buried in 2010) he was able to forge a Hall of Fame career. A Wrestlemania main event would be nice too, but I don't think it will happen.
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Old 08-04-2013, 05:21 AM   #1346 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar - THE BEST VS. THE BEAST

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Originally Posted by redban View Post
Why would you let Punk decide what's best for the finish of his own match? That's like Kevin Nash booking himself in the late-WCW years.
You know that Punk calls the shots in pretty much all of his matches right? He took the lead even against the Undertaker at Wrestlemania this year.

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Originally Posted by redban View Post
Brock's a bigger star. He's the better talent (in-ring + charisma). He's the one that has to win.

If Punk needed a win so badly, then they shouldn't have put him against Brock. Put him against Ryback or Henry instead.
Nah. Punk's a better worker than Brock is, and Brock's great, so that says something about Punk. And charisma-wise, both are just as charismatic, both of them can make their presence felt when they're out there, both of them can make you believe in what they're doing. But Punk can hold you in his palms when he's cutting a promo whereas Brock can't, so that gives Punk a slight edge over Brock. And as you said, to Brock's credit, he's a bigger star. But being a bigger star or being a better talent has nothing to do with one winning a match, its about the storylines and how it would benefit the company in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Robb Stark View Post
Punk doesn't need shit. Why are people acting like he's been Jericho-level losing? All his "big losses" this year have been while he was heel so therefore, yes, they don't count. Losing to Brock (especially considering Punk's size) would not damage Punk. He could easily regenerate momentum. Brock is on the edge at the minute though and needs this win to propel him back to the forefront.
How would Brock winning help the company? All it would do is make him look strong enough going into Wrestlemania XXX against the Rock/the Undertaker. But the thing is, that can be done even if he loses at Summerslam. He lost against Cena, but he came out the very next week and took out Triple H and the loss against Cena didn't affect him whatsoever. He was still looked at as a legitimate monster who can kick your ass anytime of the day. He lost to Triple H at Wrestlemania, but just a week later, he came out and decimated the Miz on his way to Extreme Rules, and he was looked at as just as much of a threat as he was at first, despite his loss at Wrestlemania. If Brock Lesnar wins, well, he is BROCK LESNAR. The ass kicker. Wins or losses don't matter to him cause he's just here to hurt people. And if he loses, he is still BROCK LESNAR. The ass kicker. Wins or losses don't matter to him cause he's just here to hurt people. Yeah, that's how his character is. Wins or losses don't affect him.

Now what if Punk wins? Unlike Brock, Punk's here every week, so he can make the most of the momentum off the victory, atleast more than Brock can as the latter just goes away and comes back after months and its almost like a fresh start for him. And another thing is, Punk NEEDS the victory more than Brock. He lost twice against the Rock and then against the Undertaker. You might say that he came back and beat Jericho in his hometown, but after all the jobbing he's done in his last run, beating Jericho doesn't mean a lot, even Curtis Axel beat Jericho clean. And even storyline-wise, Punk needs the win more than Brock. Heyman thinks he made Punk and that Punk's not the best in the world without him, and Punk wants to prove him wrong. Punk swore on Heyman's kids that he will destroy everything around Paul Heyman and for that he has to go through Brock Lesnar, and that he will. That's the story. You can run your mouth all you want as a heel, but when you run your mouth as a face, you mean it. And if Punk doesn't win after all the talk, it would make Punk look real weak. But if Brock loses, it wouldn't mean that Brock was the weaker man, it would go on to show that Punk went on to prove how Heyman was wrong. Heyman would lose the battle, not Brock. The outcome of the match would go on to prove that Punk's the best despite what Heyman says and that Punk could've been a star even without Heyman's assistance back in 2006. So it wouldn't hurt Brock as much, as Heyman would take all the blows.
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Old 08-04-2013, 05:39 AM   #1347 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar - THE BEST VS. THE BEAST

In regards to Punk winning a big match this would be ideal, like someone said if it's a one off encounter Punk has to win to get his win over a big star and to end the feud and get his revenge on Heyman/Lesnar.

If it's more then just this one encounter Lesnar should win but ultimately Punk should win the series and get his redemption but at this stage also I just think Punk need's a win, 4 losses from 4 big matches this year could really hurt him, and in regards to him maineventing Wrestlemania, i jsut think it's getting less and less likely, he could possibly mainevent WM30 but his chances are slim which is just bullshit, no one deserves that spot more then he does.
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:37 AM   #1348 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar - THE BEST VS. THE BEAST

I predict Brock Lesnar wins C.M. Punk possibly takes another break.
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:57 AM   #1349 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STEVIE SWAG View Post
How would Brock winning help the company?
Because he's a unique talent who can create moments no one else can.

Quote:
All it would do is make him look strong enough going into Wrestlemania XXX against the Rock/the Undertaker. But the thing is, that can be done even if he loses at Summerslam.
It can be done but the thing is, with every loss Lesnar is relegated a level. Go back and watch some of Lesnar's stuff when he first returned. The way the commentators shat themselves when Cena slapped Lesnar before Extreme Rules. Cena doing that was sold as him asking for a death wish. Now compare that to Lesnar's most recent appearance. Needing a cheapshot from Heyman to beat up a smaller and in the kayfabe, a weaker wrestler. He was a King Kong-like monster upon his return, he had an atmosphere about him.

That aura is what helped build so much excitement for Extreme Rules and made the match feel so, so special. It felt like a massive match. Seeing this hybrid wrestler/MMA fighter beast was something we'd never seen before and it gave us genuine excitement. A good portion of that excitement was immediately killed when Cena won. Did Brock still look legit? Yes, because he'd brutalised Cena during the match, actually cleanly pinning him but not getting the win because the ref was down. Also, he dominated the match and made it look like he could have won at any opportunity he wanted, he just liked punishing Cena.

Quote:
He lost against Cena, but he came out the very next week and took out Triple H and the loss against Cena didn't affect him whatsoever.
Yes it did, and to claim that it didn't is ignoring the truth. Was Brock still a monster after the defeat? Yes, and that's because of the reasons I've just given. But it killed some of his vibe like I said. Still, as you say, the beat down he put on HHH helped regain him some credibility. But again, compare that Brock to the one who a while later was being outfought and thrown out the ring by HHH (Raw 1000). Again, compare the Brock who had Cena and HHH shitting their pants to the one who needs Heyman's help to beat up CM Punk.

Quote:
He was still looked at as a legitimate monster who can kick your ass anytime of the day. He lost to Triple H at Wrestlemania, but just a week later, he came out and decimated the Miz on his way to Extreme Rules, and he was looked at as just as much of a threat as he was at first, despite his loss at Wrestlemania.
No he wasn't. There's a difference between still being viewed as a threat to being "just as much of a threat as he was at first". Seriously mate, go back and watch his earlier stuff.

Quote:
If Brock Lesnar wins, well, he is BROCK LESNAR. The ass kicker. Wins or losses don't matter to him cause he's just here to hurt people.
Yes they very much do. With every loss, he gets closer to becoming a generic heel monster.

Quote:
And if he loses, he is still BROCK LESNAR. The ass kicker. Wins or losses don't matter to him cause he's just here to hurt people. Yeah, that's how his character is. Wins or losses don't affect him.
They do.

At risk of sounding like a parrot, compare Brock now to Brock upon his return. To say his losses haven't affected him is simply not true.

Quote:
Now what if Punk wins? Unlike Brock, Punk's here every week, so he can make the most of the momentum off the victory, atleast more than Brock can as the latter just goes away and comes back after months and its almost like a fresh start for him. And another thing is, Punk NEEDS the victory more than Brock. He lost twice against the Rock and then against the Undertaker. You might say that he came back and beat Jericho in his hometown, but after all the jobbing he's done in his last run, beating Jericho doesn't mean a lot, even Curtis Axel beat Jericho clean. And even storyline-wise, Punk needs the win more than Brock. Heyman thinks he made Punk and that Punk's not the best in the world without him, and Punk wants to prove him wrong. Punk swore on Heyman's kids that he will destroy everything around Paul Heyman and for that he has to go through Brock Lesnar, and that he will. That's the story. You can run your mouth all you want as a heel, but when you run your mouth as a face, you mean it. And if Punk doesn't win after all the talk, it would make Punk look real weak. But if Brock loses, it wouldn't mean that Brock was the weaker man, it would go on to show that Punk went on to prove how Heyman was wrong. Heyman would lose the battle, not Brock. The outcome of the match would go on to prove that Punk's the best despite what Heyman says and that Punk could've been a star even without Heyman's assistance back in 2006. So it wouldn't hurt Brock as much, as Heyman would take all the blows.[/b]
Who cares who is here more often, Brock is special. Some people need to understand he is a once in a lifetime talent. Yes he's part-time, but you know why he's allowed to be? Because he's such a unique, special talent. Punk (as much as I love him) is just another main event wrestler at the minute. As you say, he's here every week. He cannot create the same vibe and moments Lesnar can at the minute. Wrestling's about being excited and entertained. I think some people forget this when they talk about how one wrestler should go over the other or one wrestler should be pushed over the other because it benefits the future. What people sometimes forget is the here and now and putting together special moments right now. Wrestling is about special moments. When people talk about building talent, they mean for it to eventually lead to something special. And when you have a once in a lifetime talent like Lesnar who won't be around as long as Punk, you have to look at how many moments you can get out of him.

Am I saying he should never lose a match? No. I'm saying he should rarely lose and that he dominates every match he's in. At the very least, if WWE insists on him losing, he should brutalise the other guy. Compare Lesnar/Cena to Lesnar/HHH at Extreme Rules. Somehow in 6 months from SummerSlam, Triple H has transformed into some of demi-god who can make Brock his bitch for most of the match.

I'm getting sidetracked. Anyway my point is, WWE should be looking to use Lesnar to create some moments they'd never be able to without a guy like him. To put on some great, unique matches. To do this, he needs to win. WWE have already hurt Lesnar's credibility big time but there's still a chance to build him back up again (not to the level he was, that's gone). That HAS to start with a win over Punk. Brock needs to built up all the way to WrestleMania so when whoever it is that beats him then, it feels like a WrestleMania moment. Think about how lacklustre HHH's victory over Lesnar felt. Lesnar had already lost to Cena and been over come by HHH in a few brawls. It was a deadbeat moment. Build him up and a give us a special WrestleMania 30.

Also, back to you talking about how much needs this win. Mate, he really doesn't. His losses against The Rock and Undertaker don't matter.

1) Because he was heel
2) Because it was the THE FUCKING ROCK AND UNDERTAKER

If he had been losing cleanly to the regular main event faces at the time (Cena, Orton, Ryback) then yeah, I could understand your worries (it'd still be while he was heel though). But the dude was the longest reigning champion of the modern era (doesn't matter how chickenshit he was, he was heel) and he overcame the likes of Cena and Ryback. And Orton? In their most recent match (face vs face) Punk beat Orton comfortably clean. Why are people ignoring this victory when they talk about Punk apparently being some bum who will die if he goes another match without winning? Yes Orton isn't the super Orton he was once but to pin him cleanly isn't nothing. With how comfortably Punk won, it shows his current standing in WWE. When it comes to full time wrestlers, he's only behind Cena kayfabe wise.

There are plenty of other ways for Punk to prove he's the "Best In The World". There's plenty of time too. Why people are acting like it's a matter of life and death whether Punk wins and that he seemingly only has a year or so left in the business I don't know. Dude's got at least another several years left in him yet.

Also, before I finish. What's wrong with Punk right now? This very second. What's wrong with him? Why are people acting like he's weak and is some sort of punching bag. They're treating him like he's Jericho. It just doesn't make any sense. Punk right now is absolutely fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoToSl33p View Post
In regards to Punk winning a big match this would be ideal, like someone said if it's a one off encounter Punk has to win to get his win over a big star and to end the feud and get his revenge on Heyman/Lesnar.

If it's more then just this one encounter Lesnar should win but ultimately Punk should win the series and get his redemption but at this stage also I just think Punk need's a win, 4 losses from 4 big matches this year could really hurt him, and in regards to him maineventing Wrestlemania, i jsut think it's getting less and less likely, he could possibly mainevent WM30 but his chances are slim which is just bullshit, no one deserves that spot more then he does.
He was heel.

Why are people overlooking this? I just don't get it.

Also in regards to WrestleMania? Have him win 99% of his matches from after a loss to Lesnar all the way to WrestleMania. Have him win the Rumble. Sorted. Done. He's fine.

Punk is nowhere near the desperate situation people are painting him out to be. I simply do not understand it. Again, I'm a massive Punk mark, but I just don't get it.
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Real mature man. Did I insult you at all?

How old are you? Calm down.
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:58 AM   #1350 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar - THE BEST VS. THE BEAST

Quote:
It can be done but the thing is, with every loss Lesnar is relegated a level. Go back and watch some of Lesnar's stuff when he first returned. The way the commentators shat themselves when Cena slapped Lesnar before Extreme Rules. Cena doing that was sold as him asking for a death wish. Now compare that to Lesnar's most recent appearance. Needing a cheapshot from Heyman to beat up a smaller and in the kayfabe, a weaker wrestler. He was a King Kong-like monster upon his return, he had an atmosphere about him.

That aura is what helped build so much excitement for Extreme Rules and made the match feel so, so special. It felt like a massive match. Seeing this hybrid wrestler/MMA fighter beast was something we'd never seen before and it gave us genuine excitement. A good portion of that excitement was immediately killed when Cena won. Did Brock still look legit? Yes, because he'd brutalised Cena during the match, actually cleanly pinning him but not getting the win because the ref was down. Also, he dominated the match and made it look like he could have won at any opportunity he wanted, he just liked punishing Cena.

Yes it did, and to claim that it didn't is ignoring the truth. Was Brock still a monster after the defeat? Yes, and that's because of the reasons I've just given. But it killed some of his vibe like I said. Still, as you say, the beat down he put on HHH helped regain him some credibility. But again, compare that Brock to the one who a while later was being outfought and thrown out the ring by HHH (Raw 1000). Again, compare the Brock who had Cena and HHH shitting their pants to the one who needs Heyman's help to beat up CM Punk.
If it can be done, then why not do it? Why would you have Punk lose and have his momentum derailed further when you can have him win and keep his momentum intact and still have Brock be a beast at the same time?

As far as the bolded part goes, that was because Brock had just returned. You expected them to book him weakly after his return? No, he just had to be booked like a monster. But eventually, they had to book him weak in certain situations like they do with every heel, depending on the storylines, because you just can't have every feud with the heel kicking the shit out of the babyface. That's not how it works.


Quote:
Who cares who is here more often, Brock is special. Some people need to understand he is a once in a lifetime talent. Yes he's part-time, but you know why he's allowed to be? Because he's such a unique, special talent. Punk (as much as I love him) is just another main event wrestler at the minute. As you say, he's here every week. He cannot create the same vibe and moments Lesnar can at the minute. Wrestling's about being excited and entertained. I think some people forget this when they talk about how one wrestler should go over the other or one wrestler should be pushed over the other because it benefits the future. What people sometimes forget is the here and now and putting together special moments right now. Wrestling is about special moments. When people talk about building talent, they mean for it to eventually lead to something special. And when you have a once in a lifetime talent like Lesnar who won't be around as long as Punk, you have to look at how many moments you can get out of him.
Actually, you lost me when you said the bolded part. I was just going to ignore your post after that, but I thought I'd tell you a thing or two. This year is an exception, but have you ever noticed how things go a bit downwards after Wrestlemania, especially after Extreme Rules and it never picks up until the Money In The Bank PPV? That's because by that time, all the part timers leave. They return around the Wrestlemania season, hog the spotlight throughout those two months, work their matches, and they leave. And then its the full-timers who do the job of steadying the ship in time for Summerslam, only for the part timers to return and hog the spotlight yet again. Thinking of it, its quite sad. But it makes them money, so whatevs. So yeah, my point is, what happens when the part timers leave? Its upto the full-timers to steady things up. So you are supposed to care who's here more often.

And wrestling should be all about moments and we shouldn't think of what happens in the long run? Ever heard of WCW? They gave you moments, many moments And they had guys like Hogan, Nash and Hall dominate the main-event scene all the fucking time when they should've thought about the Mysterios, the Jerichos, the Guerrerros, the Malenkos and all the other guys that were supposed lead the company into the future, but they didn't. And guess what? WCW died.


Quote:
Also, back to you talking about how much needs this win. Mate, he really doesn't. His losses against The Rock and Undertaker don't matter.

1) Because he was heel
2) Because it was the THE FUCKING ROCK AND UNDERTAKER

If he had been losing cleanly to the regular main event faces at the time (Cena, Orton, Ryback) then yeah, I could understand your worries (it'd still be while he was heel though). But the dude was the longest reigning champion of the modern era (doesn't matter how chickenshit he was, he was heel) and he overcame the likes of Cena and Ryback. And Orton? In their most recent match (face vs face) Punk beat Orton comfortably clean. Why are people ignoring this victory when they talk about Punk apparently being some bum who will die if he goes another match without winning? Yes Orton isn't the super Orton he was once but to pin him cleanly isn't nothing. With how comfortably Punk won, it shows his current standing in WWE. When it comes to full time wrestlers, he's only behind Cena kayfabe wise.
If you go by that logic, then Brock losing against Punk won't matter to Brock because he's a heel, right?

Also, no I'm not bitching about Punk's position in the E right now, he's doing real good. Its just that storyline-wise, Punk needs the win more and Punk winning would have better pay-off in the long run.


Quote:
There are plenty of other ways for Punk to prove he's the "Best In The World". There's plenty of time too. Why people are acting like it's a matter of life and death whether Punk wins and that he seemingly only has a year or so left in the business I don't know. Dude's got at least another several years left in him yet.
Dude, have you even been following the feud? Read the last eight lines from my last post, its not that this is the only time Punk's getting a chance to prove himself or anything like that. That is how the storyline is.

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Real mature man. Did I insult you at all?

How old are you? Calm down.
What, isn't that why the rep system exists? To red rep people who you think are wrong about something and vice versa?

I'm 7 btw.
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