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Old 07-18-2013, 12:21 AM   #1001 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar & Paul Heyman Feud

Following Summerslam and the big match with lesnar,Punk should continue his feud with Heyman go up against the likes of Axel,Shield,Ohno/Graves(New Heyman guys??) and have one big final match with Lesnar possibly for the title with Punk being the rumble winner and Lesnar gets the belt at a PPV sometime before that?? That would be my perfect definition of long term booking and I would be so proud to be a wrestling fan if the E pulled something like that off.
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Old 07-18-2013, 12:46 AM   #1002 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar & Paul Heyman Feud

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Originally Posted by funnyfaces1 View Post
Where did this whole idea perpetuated by redban and SinJackal about CM Punk not wrestling according to size difference come from? There are tons of examples of Punk crafting a story based on his opponent being bigger than him and adjusting his offense accordingly.
I already explained it multiple times, but I'll do it again since I've got nothing better to do tonight. Let's look at Punk's recent marquee matchups:

Punk vs Rock: Punk shoulder tackles The Rock to the ground repeatedly (Rock is much bigger and was a linebacker), Punk overpowers Rock in holds, Punk dominates the entire match until it's restarted by Vince, but only after Punk already "won".

Punk vs Undertaker: Punk completely dominates the first 15-20 minutes of the match in every possible way until he "hurt his knee" to allow an opening for Undertaker, since apparently Undertaker can't do anything but get dominated by Punk unless he "gets hurt" now.

Punk vs Cena: How often do you recall Cena "overpowering" CM Punk?

Punk's scuffle vs Brock: Punk locks up with Brock and forces him back to the apron like he's tackling him (Brock was also a football player and is even stronger than The Rock). Punk no-sold Brock's punches then overpowered him while they were locked up to land hits. He basically no sold everything until the F5.

So apparently Punk can easily shoulder tackle to the ground and drive back ex-football players who are much bigger and stronger than he is, while also being able to lock up with and not be overpowered by them despite the fact that they're twice or near twice as strong as him.

Punk just does his normal offense and controls most of the match like he's on equal or better footing no matter who he's facing. Based upon recent history, he does NOT adjust his offense when facing stronger opponents. He's just booked to have all his offense work normally without a hitch, completely ignoring the power and prestige of his opponents in an attempt to make him seem equal to or better than them.

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Originally Posted by THANOS View Post
The thing that huge Brock advocators on here need to realize that Brock beating Punk does nothing for Brock, but Punk beating Brock does EVERYTHING for Punk. It does not end here either, Punk jokes around all the time about retiring in 2 years but I highly doubt he's going to do that and even if he does, he'll probably stay around on a part-time basis for like 5 more years after. Brock is more than likely gone in a couple years for good because WWE will feel that got everything they needed out of him by legitimizing the roster more, and will end negotiations with him because his monster contract is, as reported, damaging to the company's financial health and moral of the full-timers.

If Brock puts over Punk in at least one of their matches together, then Punk's credibility shoots up dramatically and can be spread to the rest of the roster once he becomes a part-timer or, maybe, sooner.

Enough of this "Lesnar's credibility needs to be huge or his Mania match won't draw money" crap. Newsflash, short term gains are nice, but not at the expense of long-term growth, and that is something that WWE needs a lot more than one more profitable Mania thanks to XYZ part-timer.
And what you don't realize is that Lesnar losing even further diminishes his marketability after Triple H felt the need to satiate his ego against him.

"Does everything for Punk"? Punk doesn't need anything else, he's already gotten everything over the past two years. WWE keeps wasting huge money appearances on Punk. Two Rock matches, a Taker match, and now a Brock match. All right after he got the longest WWE title reign in the Raw era while never losing at PPVs and beating John Cena more times in that time period than basically anyone in the history of WWE. Punk doesn't need anything else, he's already "Cena for smarks".

Nobody else has gotten anything remotely close to that kind of push. Imagine if instead WWE gave another wrestler half the push Punk got. Then you'd have two huge wrestlers instead of Punk peaking then having his push continue over a long period of time and him still not get any bigger. Punk doesn't need tons more shit funneled into his career. This stuff needs to be spread out more.

I have to be honest too, I laughed when you said Punk's credibility after beating Lesnar would be spread to the rest of the roster. Punk hasn't been putting anyone over besides part timers who were way above him already. So yeah, I don't buy that bullshit for a second. He isn't magically going to start putting people over. After all, if he gets a "big credibility boost", well now that's an excuse for Punk to not put anyone over for awhile. . .again. It's a vicious circle in which nobody benefits but Punk. Again.

Brock's marketability still matters even in the short term since multiple millions of guaranteed dollars are at stake vs the shakey promise that somehow long term Punk will earn all that lost money back on top of what he would've normally earned should he win the match. Punk winning doesn't put him over anymore since he's already peaked. Him winning doesn't do anything but make WWE less credible in general. If they're putting someone like Punk over Brock Lesnar, then what credibility is there to WWE? Rhetorical question.

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^ at this guy using gifs to compensate for his lack of valid arguments.
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Hypocrite much?

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Dude he was carrying the match for them, b/c they are old and don't have the lungs anymore. How else could those matches have been booked?
Cena didn't have to carry either of his matches with The Rock. Triple H didn't have to carry Taker in his last match before his match with Punk. Punk was simply booked to dominate them to make Punk look as good as possible in the losses. Just like Triple H booked himself to completely dominate Brock Lesnar in his last match then take a flukey unclean loss.
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Old 07-18-2013, 12:46 AM   #1003 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar & Paul Heyman Feud

Punk is clearly the #2 face. It isn't even a debate right now; it's an open-and-shut case. I don't mind a Punk/Axel feud, but that should be for Night of Champions instead of Survivor Series. Once again, Punk should lose at Summerslam, but if he is to ever get his win back, it should be at the next PPV in Chicago (uncleanly of course). Between that time, he can do his own redemption storyline where he helps put people over in world title feuds and possibly wrestles against The Shield.

And Punk has showed off the size difference in his matches against Ryback, Henry, Big Show, Kane, Undertaker, and even Cena.

Against Ryback at Hell in a Cell, Punk was being tossed around like no other world champion ever has. In their TLC match, Ryback again overpowered Punk (even doing a very long stalling suplex). The entire story of that match was Ryback's power and size vs. Punk's intelligence and cunning nature.

Against Henry, Punk didn't even bother lifting Henry up. Punk's offense consisted entirely of strikes and weapon shots. Heck, the man lost cleanly to Henry during his big face push. Mark dominated in all of their matches and it took crucial errors by Henry for the tide to turn in Punk's favor.

Against Big Show, he only bothered lifting him up once, and it was to further the size difference story. Punk aimed low against Big Show and attacked his legs. He even went as far as to stomp on Big Show's feet; a tactic that Rey Mysterio often used against bigger opponents.

Against Kane, Punk had to resort to either attacking Kane's legs or going after Kane's already injured arm. Once again, Punk played off the size difference in a match against Kane when he attempted to lift Kane up for the GTS, but Kane just toppled on Punk. In fact, I don't think Punk ever beat Kane cleanly now that I think about it.

Punk did not dominate for most of his match against Undertaker. Undertaker got just as much offense in (including his signature tropes) and Punk took control off of counters to Undertaker. Taker overpowered Punk multiple times and even no-sold his finisher. Punk's other big breaks in that match also occurred because of Heyman's interference; not because Punk "matched up" to Undertaker. Also look at the way Undertaker does a Backlund-like lift of Punk when Punk used the Anaconda Vice. The only time Punk really matched up in a standing position with Undertaker was during their strike exchange, which still works in kayfabe because Punk is considered a very good striker. Even then, Punk lost that battle and had to resort to knocking out the referee and Heyman's assistance to get out of that predicament.

When Cena faces Punk, Cena gets to show off his power offense more than with any other opponent (Emerald Frosion, Powerbomb, Spinning Side Slam). Cena also regularly lifts Punk up from a ground position to show off his strength in their matches. We also regularly see Cena's crossbody catch spot as well. There are tons of instances where Cena overpowers Punk in their matches. Besides, the size advantage for Cena isn't even that big as they're roughly the same height. What is played off is the strength advantage.

This isn't even covering some of Punk's other well-done matches against bigger opponents, such as Umaga, Samoa Joe, Big Daddy V, etc. Forgot to also mention his match at GAB 08 against Batista. Face/face match, but Punk works from the bottom against Batista who overpowers him by hitting power moves and throwing him around. Punk's offense consists of keeping his distance from Batista and kicking his legs, with a reverse cross body from the top rope added in.
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Old 07-18-2013, 01:16 AM   #1004 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar & Paul Heyman Feud

The only reason Lesnar is even back in the WWE, is because he couldn't cut it in the UFC any more. He's not a legit MMA fighter now, he is a pro-wrestler, he's back in the land of make-believe - a world where reality is thrown out the window, and ANYTHING is possible... and if that means losing to Punk, then so be it. As for all this whinging and crying about Lesnar's "aura" being damaged... as I've pointed out before, Lesnar's aura has long gone - I'd say it went around the time Velasquez was knocking him about and left him cowering on the mat, with a vagina under his eye...

aura going...


...going



gone....

Plus, add the fact that since being back, Lesnar has already lost two out of his three matches - both to men that Punk has more than comfortably, been able to hang with, so this talk about Lesnar's "aura", is moot, anyway... he is simply just another WWE superstar now. Also, like THANOS said, a win for Lesnar does nothing to improve his standing... but a win for Punk is HUGE. Not to mention that the crowd will be behind Punk - like they were on Monday, and will want to see him overcome the beast. As for those questioning why Punk is calling out Lesnar and not acting scared, the answer is simple... Punk's character is built on the premise of him being a maverick, and Punk simply doesn't give a shit - in his mind, he is the best in the world. He knows he is going to get a beating, but he'll gladly accept it, if it means he can get his hands on Lesnar.
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Old 07-18-2013, 01:50 AM   #1005 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar & Paul Heyman Feud

I've read parts of what all these walls of text are saying but why I will say is, the whole 'size issue' and 'credibility' thing regarding Punk is doing my head in!
No I'm not a biased Punk mark, he has his flaws like everyone does, but I'm sick of hearing the same old crap about his size. Why is it such an issue with him? Off memory The Rock isn't much smaller then Lesnar and either is the Undertaker who Punk stole the show with at Mania? If his not seen as legitimate why the fuck is he entering a program with Brock? Smaller men win against larger men on occasions but for it to be believable which seems to be another thing bothering everyone it has to be booked properly and when I say properly I mean fucking precise. It needs to be David vs Goliath, Brock needs to continue to dominate Punk, go into Summerslam looking like a killer. Then when they face off have Brock dominates big periods, have a 40 min or so match, but the storytelling needs to be pin point, such as having Brock struggle to finish Punk off, then have Punk claw his way back slowly and end it with 2 GTS' or via submission, something and anything but it has to be a struggle! With Heyman ringside and Punk in ring I'm pretty sure they could tell the story pretty good. If there were stipulations then have Punk belt the living shit out of Lesnar, but like I've said it can very easily be believable but it needs to be sold and story told effectively and the key ingredients are very visible.

Don't for one second suggest Punk vs Axel would be worthy of good viewing, not even gonna bother explaining the bleeding obvious.

And yea Lesnar may still be recovering from that fucking horribly booked Cena loss, but Punk needs this win way more, he needs a huge win over a huge part timer with a good background like Lesnar, he will become way more credible and believable. Brock will suffer but no where near what Punk would if he lost, that would be 4 huge PPV losses in a row this year and really makes no sense for someone who held the title for 434 days.

Lesnar will look credible regardless to me he has an aura around him everytime
he is on m TV screen, if he was going into a match against The Rock at Mania, it
would still look credible as possible for me.

At the end of the day the loss would hurt Punk way more, he needs a career defining or life changing moment and beating Lesnar the 'beast' and getting his payback from his former best friend in Heyman is it.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:03 AM   #1006 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar & Paul Heyman Feud

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Best Heavyweight there is but doesn't look intimidating. Jon, Cain, Silva, Weidman, GSP, Da Silva, etc. Best there is and they will kick all WWE rosters ass, size means shit in front of those gentlemen oops I mean walmart looking guys.
Cain doesn't look intimidating? Why are people acting like Cain is a small guy? He's 6'2, 240lbs, far from small. Of course size matters, that's why the UFC has weight classes, Brock in his prime would have destroyed all of the guys you listed besides Velasquez and maybe Jon Jones.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:15 AM   #1007 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar & Paul Heyman Feud

wait, are people seriously saying that punk doesn't know how to work bigger guys and just wrestles his basic match regardless of opponent???
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:32 AM   #1008 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar & Paul Heyman Feud

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Originally Posted by mblonde09 View Post
The only reason Lesnar is even back in the WWE, is because he couldn't cut it in the UFC any more. He's not a legit MMA fighter now, he is a pro-wrestler, he's back in the land of make-believe - a world where reality is thrown out the window, and ANYTHING is possible... and if that means losing to Punk, then so be it. As for all this whinging and crying about Lesnar's "aura" being damaged... as I've pointed out before, Lesnar's aura has long gone - I'd say it went around the time Velasquez was knocking him about and left him cowering on the mat, with a vagina under his eye...

aura going...


...going



gone....

Plus, add the fact that since being back, Lesnar has already lost two out of his three matches - both to men that Punk has more than comfortably, been able to hang with, so this talk about Lesnar's "aura", is moot, anyway... he is simply just another WWE superstar now. Also, like THANOS said, a win for Lesnar does nothing to improve his standing... but a win for Punk is HUGE. Not to mention that the crowd will be behind Punk - like they were on Monday, and will want to see him overcome the beast. As for those questioning why Punk is calling out Lesnar and not acting scared, the answer is simple... Punk's character is built on the premise of him being a maverick, and Punk simply doesn't give a shit - in his mind, he is the best in the world. He knows he is going to get a beating, but he'll gladly accept it, if it means he can get his hands on Lesnar.
Sounds like SOMEBODY doesn't like Brock at all.

Yeah he got his ass handed to him by Cain but I think his Aura disappeared the moment that damn DISEASE got to him. It was already affecting him even when he basically ESCAPED with a submission(of all things) win against Carwin.

But regardless of where Brock is now(land of make-believe; same place as PUNK. Imagine that....), he STILL has that Aura of LEGITIMACY because he went into a LEGIT fighting sport and was the HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP of that sport. That put him on a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT level than any of the current WWE Superstars, IMO.

All that said, I fully expect a LESNAR/PUNK TRILOGY to occur 'cause if it's only one match and that's it, then I don't see Brock losing to Punk in that one match. I see him(oh excuse me....let me use *YOUR* logic here) or rather see his CHARACTER basically destroy Punk ultimately.

Punk will EVENTUALLY get his hands on Heyman at some point but not at the expense of BORK LASER.
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Old 07-18-2013, 05:53 AM   #1009 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar & Paul Heyman Feud

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Hypocrite much?
Listen to me you pile of shit. I was making fun of him for using gifs to compensate for his zero reasoning IN AN ARGUMENT he had with another person. Meanwhile when I used that picture, I was not in verbal fight with anyone, I was just joking with the guy for saying that he would ignore me... See, those are two completely different situations but your clear lack of comprehension skills makes them look similar.

Your welcome. :sandow

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Old 07-18-2013, 06:09 AM   #1010 (permalink)
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Default Re: CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar & Paul Heyman Feud

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Listen to me you pile of shit. I was making fun of him for using gifs to compensate for his zero reasoning IN AN ARGUMENT he had with another person. Meanwhile when I used that picture, I was not in verbal fight with anyone, I was just joking with the guy for saying that he would ignore me... See, those are two completely different situations but your clear lack of comprehension skills makes them look similar.

Your welcome. :sandow
Less of the name calling please.

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