The reason there's no continuity is the same reason I talked about the caliber of opponents. The story of the HBK/Taker/HHH feud is not the story of the streak in any way. When they wrestled Taker year after year, there was a need for continuity because it was the same person fighting, with the same amount of impact, the same concept, the same moves, the same strong points, the same personalities, so you needed to take it to another level. With another guy it's a different story. What people don't get is the fact that the moment the program is over, the process during it is over. Your argument is basically that in 2002 for example, after Brock killed Taker in a brutal HIAC, Kurt Angle is not believable to wrestle Brock in a match, Lesnar needs to wrestle his entire career in NODQ matches with his opponents trying to kill him with chairs because that's the only way to beat him if Taker wasn't able to do it in a bloody cage match. You see how flawed this mindset is? I have no doubt that the crowd was completely into the WM28 match, I never said they weren't, hell, I was into it all the way. What you're saying about the fans seeing an "evolution" in the streak match therefore will not believe a nearfall is not the case. They're not going to believe a nearfall that they already saw 10 times in 4 years, like Taker taking a SCM or a Pedigree, which is why in THEIR evolution of matches, they needed to take the match to another level with weapons, special ref, cages etc. Will the audience buy a first time ever Rock Bottom/People's Elbow combination on Taker after a grueling match, something that pinned Hulk Hogan clean? Absolutely, and I'm willing to bet that it will be the biggest eruption in the history of the streak, maybe only with HHH's tombstone and Shawn's SCM after the table spot at WM26. Even then I doubt it. As for an indicator of believability and the fact that the fanbase wouldn't pay to see a predictable outcome, I can definitely see Rock vs Undertaker drawing much bigger than Brock and Cena against Taker. You put the slogan of Rock saying that Team Bring It has only one goal left to do and that's ending the streak, and that Taker never faced an opponent in the caliber of Rock and who HE beat at WM to stand there as the GOAT. That alone will create an astronomical buzz, interest and bigger attraction than anything they can do with Lesnar or Cena. Cena is not turning heel BTW, I don't know why people still making plans and booking him like that when it's obvious that it's not happening for many reasons from Vince and Cena himself. Even as a heel, Cena was never a industry changer at his peak as a babyface, as a heel he will do the same thing, just with different attitude and will lose his only bigger than usual drawing power which is merchandise to his kids fanbase.
Originally Posted by Green Light
Both times he has done the kip-up on live TV he needed help from the guy he was facing and then obviously that one he did against Miz failed, you can give whatever excuses but he botched it. It's not a big deal anyway, I doubt there are many 260lb 40 year old men who could still do it after 7/8 years out the game
It wasn't really a matter of help, he did it a lot in the past:
Rock said in one interview that he watched a lot of his matches before WM28, this exchange along with the crossbody is one of the moves he took from that Rocky Maivia era.
Obviously he can't do it easily like he's 28 again but he did it a lot of times in the past year so he can do it, you can't use a rare slip as an indicator, shit like that happens, especially in the first time in almost a decade, take RVD here in 2006 when he was full time:
It's a cool spot but it's not make or break. You're going to see another next year in one of his matches, 100%, especially in the current shape which was closer to 2002 with the way he bumping on RAW 1000.
Last edited by Rock316AE : 08-27-2012 at 12:11 AM.
Yuck no! This is a horrible thing to say. Horrible. You don't understand how I don't get your point well I don't understand for one second how you can say that there has been no evolution of the streak matches. That's just flat out wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. The story is there, it's right in front of you and staring everybody in the face. Their (HBK/Taker/HHH) story has now become the story of the streak. The Undertaker MUST be destroyed in order to beat him at Wrestlemania and it will take a hell of a lot more than a Rock Bottom to get the job done.
I don't think you're getting what I'm saying at all tbh because that's not it. Then again, you don't, for whatever reason, see any evolution or continuity in the streak matches so it's obvious where the disconnect is coming from. I'll tell you this much. I was there for Mania 28 and from bell to bell, before that actually with JR walking down the ramp, that entire arena was 150% invested in the HIAC match. 150%. Every nearfall, every finisher, everything was bought into so I don't see how you can say that a match with Rock would best that. Match it? Maybe. Best it? I don't think so. I also don't think a Rock Bottom/Elbow combo is going to scare people into believing the streak is over as much as you think it will. Most fans aren't stupid and most of them, like me, will see an evolution in the streak matches these past few years. They're going to know that it will take a hell of a lot more to beat Taker than the People's Elbow. If it happens after a complete and utter ass kicking with weapons and brutal spots etc? Sure. If it happens in the context of a regular match or even a highly intense match? I don't think so, not for one second. I also disagree that Rock/Taker will be better than Cena/Taker. With Cena, there is legit belief that he could end the streak and if he were to be heel for the program, that would only multiply. Brock/Taker will be better than Rock/Taker as well imo. While still fairly predictable, for the sake of the story, I can buy into Lesnar beating Taker a lot more than I can Rock. I don't think I'd be the only one either.
If he does the Taker match he's the de facto heel the second it even gets teased. He's basically a heel in all his programs already lol. Put him against Taker and there's no way he'll be able to get by on his never give up shit. There is a LOT of meat on the bones for a Taker/Cena program. A LOT, much more so than Rock/Taker could ever hope to have in 2012/13/14.
Nobody is advocating for Rock v Undertaker right now. We all know that ship sailed long ago. If Brock Lesnar is not the opponent for the streak at Wrestlemania John Cena will be the opponent.
The argument for evolution and contuinity of his matches is going to get watered down eventually because not every single match is going to be a No DQ followed by a Hell in a Cell match. When John Cena faces Taker whether that's at 29 or 30 he's not going to be able to hit Taker with 10 straight chair shots. He's not going to match the physicality that Triple H brought to the table, and Brock Lesnar is a completely unique wrestle and is the only guy that can raise the bar to what Triple H and Michaels have done without a stip.
I find it unlikely that John Cena will be heel going into his match with Taker. He may leave a heel and that would certainly add some intrigue into the match but the match is going to rely on finishers alot more than you guys seem willing to admit.
FTR I said it would draw better, be less predictable, be a better build and a better overall card. I did not say it would be better match though.
Here's were I disagree with you. I think John Cena could bridge your continuity gap for a Rock Taker match to be believable. We also don't quite know when Taker will hang it up so Cena winning is without a doubt a possibility.
Last edited by GillbergReturns : 08-26-2012 at 10:35 PM.
Your argument is basically that in 2002 for example, after Brock killed Taker in a brutal HIAC, Kurt Angle is not believable to wrestle Brock in a match, Lesnar needs to wrestle his entire career in NODQ matches with his opponents trying to kill him with chairs because that's the only way to beat him if Taker wasn't able to do it in a bloody cage match.
That is not my argument though. That's not what I'm saying. At all. There are matches, then there are streak matches. That is the underpinning thing you're forgetting about. Different finishes happen between different guys in different feuds and different matches all the time. If things were to happen the way you just said above then yeah, it would be flawed and stupid. But again, this is The Undertaker at Wrestlemania and it has now become an ever evolving story. To say that there is no continuity and to base that claim on your example above is quite ridiculous tbh and makes no sense because it isn't relevant. Streak matches are different, especially after the last 4, because they are now tied together. There's no way they will be able to have the next streak match without mentioning what has happened before. Why? Because it's part of the story of the streak, it's the evolution of that story that we see play out every year and it's the continuation of the tried and true 'What does is take to beat The Undertaker at Wrestlemania?' question. Every year we've seen him become more and more mortal but yet he still finds a way to keep his streak alive. That is the story they've been telling and that is the story they will continue to tell because it is now tied to Taker's legacy and his streak. What you're suggesting is madness. To throw all of that away would be a crime tbh.
You put the slogan of Rock saying that Team Bring It has only one goal left to do and that's ending the streak, and that Taker never faced an opponent in the caliber of Rock and who HE beat at WM to stand there as the GOAT. That alone will create an astronomical buzz, interest and bigger attraction than anything they can do with Lesnar or Cena.
Maybe. But I'm nowhere near as confident of that creating an astronomical buzz as you are. I also think that the second Rock and Taker would start cutting promos on each other, interest would very quickly disintegrate. Nobody wants to see Rock trend things on twitter with the Undertaker standing across the ring from him and nobody wants to see the Undertaker cut his distinctive and limited promos with Rock standing across from him either. It doesn't click and imo, it simply doesn't work. I don't want to see it and quite frankly, if it were to happen I honestly don't think I'd give a single fuck. I'm a Rock mark but I don't believe he has the ability to work the type of match that the streak needs in this day and age. I disagree completely with a simply grueling match being enough to get the job done and I don't think I'd be the only one who wouldn't buy into that. Lesnar and Cena are much better opponents for Taker while Rock is much better suited to the big style main event matches that he worked with Cena this year and probably will work with Punk at the Rumble. He doesn't need to be anywhere near the Undertaker or the streak and I really would hate to see that happen. I understand that you think Rock can just slot into every and anything perfectly lol but I'm not of that same belief. He has a limited amount of matches/programs left and it would be such a waste to put him against Taker when there are better options for both men on the table.
I'm not basing what I'm saying on that at all, all I said from the start that this argument is unrealistic when you talks about believability and realism because of all the punishment Taker took in 2 matches out of 20. Why? because if we're talking reality here, there's caliber of opponents, they're not all on the same level like what you're suggesting. As for the "evolution" of the streak matches, they started to book it as an attraction since the Randy Orton feud in 2005. In 2008 Undertaker wrestled Edge, the same match with the same nearfalls of the Orton match 3 years earlier, take out the RKO from the chokeslam, put in spear after a tombstone. Where was the evolution then? nowhere, why? because Taker wrestled Orton and Edge and his opponents between them in only one WM match. Take Batista, if Batista was part time and was only working Mania every year, he does his match with Taker at WM23, instead of working the stipulation series they did for 2007 in LMS and cages, they will be working it at WM. Simple. That's exactly what happened in the Taker/HHH/HBK feud, and what I said about the Brock Lesnar example from 2002. There was no evolution for 16 years, now suddenly you want to tell me that because part time workers continued their feud a year later in another WM instead of doing the stipulation match at Backlash or Extreme Rules is an "evolution"? I don't see it. It's another standard pro wrestling program with the guys taking their physicality in the matches to another level after they, in their program, with their characters, maximized their effort in the borders of a regular wrestling match. Of course they're going to show what Taker did in past WMs because the entire selling point is in his 20+ year history on the PPV, but they also did way before 2009. Check the video packages for WM21 and WM23.
What you're saying about promo style is simple adaptation, Rock is not going to work what he did with Cena, and Taker is not going to work what he did with HHH. It's a different character, it's a different crowd investment and it's a different dynamics between the characters. You're talking like Rock and Taker are some random limited rookies who just got a script and they told them backstage to go read in the ring and do the facial expressions. Not working that way on that level of performers. I don't see what is that ability you need to work a simple brawl like Taker and HHH did, there was no special stiffness, there was no "hard ways", the match was based on drama and their story more than the actual action, only a few are on Rock's level of storytelling and getting the emotion of the live audience, you take out the cage and Shawn and it was a regular match with both stars trading finishers and chairshots, and wrestling the main event WWE style IMO. I get your point of view and what you want to see from it, but I'm sure that enough people will be 110% interested in a Rock/Taker program and will pay to see them at WM more than any other match, maybe even above Rock against Cena/Brock if they do it right. Lesnar will give you an MMA brawl with Taker at WM, some will like it, some will hate it and find it boring, the same reaction the Lesnar/HHH match got(I personally loved it), Cena will give you the same match Batista and HBK gave you only levels below it in quality, which is Taker and Cena trading finishers until a nice combination where Taker wins, if you have no problem with that? I don't see your point against Rock/Taker TBH. I'm not saying that Rock can just fit into every slot at all, I never said that, he's not going to work Ladder matches today, he's not going to work EC matches today and I don't see him working cage matches today, I agree that it will be unnecessary. But Rock brawling with Taker on the same level HHH did just in the context of a match instead of HIAC, giving you completely fresh and believable nearfalls and huge crowd investment and interest in every group of fans? Without a doubt he can and will do it if they ever work together, WM29 I don't see it, WM30 is a big option. I really don't get how you can call Rock vs Taker at WM a waste when they want to give you ANOTHER Rock vs Cena match, a program that the vast majority of the audience already got their dream scenario from this feud and match. If we were talking about Rock/HBK, Rock/Lesnar at WM as the other options, I can see your point, another Cena match instead of a dream, first time ever The Rock vs The Undertaker interaction on the biggest show of the year? I don't see it in any way.
Last edited by Rock316AE : 08-27-2012 at 11:06 AM.
We're going in circles here. I did read your post above btw but I feel like I'm repeating myself and I don't think you fully understand what I'm saying either which is why I'm stopping lol. End of the day, I think Rock/Taker would suck for all the reasons I've already said. I don't feel the need to say them again which is all I'd be doing if I wrote out another wall of text post for you to respond to. I'd much rather see Taker/Brock and Taker/Cena and I think that's what will happen at Mania 29 and then Mania 30. I'm not even sure Rock will work Mania 30 at this point tbh.
I can respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it.
As for WM30, I think he will be there, at WM20, Vince tried to create a super card with all the stars available, they even did it a 5 hour PPV IIRC. They're probably going to do the same for 30. I'm sure Rock can push some things even if he's filming that month to be there. It's a special event, and he's now working with the company. I think that he personally wants to work and headline that show. If he is working WM27/28/29, no reason to stop just when THE show is the next step. In March 2013 when they announce the host city, we will probably get an official announcement.
Last edited by Rock316AE : 08-27-2012 at 12:03 PM.
I'd love to see him there but I'm not sure that he will. Maybe he'll make an appearance actually but I don't know about him working a match. It's a shame 30 isn't going to be in NYC though. That would be the perfect time for him to go into the HOF. He could headline that and appear at the show itself to soak up the love.
No doubt, I always wanted Rock to go into the HOF in MSG, this place is special for him and his family for over 30 years, he started there, he left there, he came back there, just perfect to build an HOF in New York around him. And with the old school crowd, could have been an amazing moment. No problem with Foley/Nash/Warrior/Backlund etc, but that show belongs to Rock. If not the HOF, I can definitely see him working a match, although it's too far to predict an opponent(unless you go for the obvious HBK dream match), a lot can happen.