Did HHH kill Batista's career? - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, ROH, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 10-27-2010, 06:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Did HHH kill Batista's career?

You'll probably all kick my ass for this and tell me how I'm reading too much into it but I couldn't help but think after watching the Hell In A Cell match at Vengeance 2005 (which I just caught for the first time on DVD), that despite Batista getting the pin and retaining his title that it was HHH who came out looking like the winner.

For those of you who think that winning is the only way a wrestler gets over I'd like to direct your attention to the Ladder Match between Shawn Michaels and Razor Ramon at WM 10. Michaels lost but what he did with the ladder catapulted his career to a whole other level. Another example would be Steve Austin, who cleanly lost a Submission Match to Bret Hart at WM 13 but because of his refusal to quit, got over anyway and became a superstar. So leave that weak ass argument at home please.

Sure, Batista won, but he did so w/this superhuman effort that pushed the limits of believability beyond what I think even wrestling fans were able to accept. There was a point in the match in which Batista kicked out of a Pedigree. Fine. Wrestler hits his opponent with his/her finisher and they kick out. Happens all the time. No big deal. Shortly afterward, HHH wraps a chain around his fist and nails Batista in the face with it. Now, in real life, you might get up, but chances are, you're not pushing a 260-lb man off of you in less than three seconds. By that point, the fans were counting along almost as if they had already turned on Batista and were expecting HHH to win. When Batista kicked out it was like the life was sucked completely out of the crowd. They seemed to be in utter disbelief, but not in that good way that encourages them to get behind the hero but in that bad way that causes them to boo the hero for expecting them to swallow this fantasy which has just crossed the line from cool to corny.

Shawn Michaels wrote about just such an instance in his biography Heartbreak and Triumph. He tells the story how that Vince insisted on Diesel kicking out after a one count during their championship match at WM 11 after Shawn hit him with the superkick. Shawn and Diesel argued it, that it would make the fans turn against Diesel because they all knew that was Shawn's move and that such a strong kickout would insult their intelligence; it had to be one, two, and then barely kickout. Vince insisted stating that he wanted Diesel to look "strong." They went with what they were told and sure enough, the crowd turned on Diesel and never looked back, despite all of the WWF's best efforts to resurrect his babyface run, it just wasn't going to happen.

I wasn't following the WWF at the time this HIAC match took place, but I know from what I've read that Batista was never fully embraced by fans and I wonder if this match had something to do with that. If "The Game" truly wanted to leave an impression on the fans that he was still The Man despite the loss, he would know how to do it. Not only with the impossible kickout but with some other subtleties as well.

For instance, it was HHH who introduced every single weapon to the match. In a straight-up match, this would be considered cheating and cause to hate him. But in a HIAC, this is considered brilliant and if anything, worthy of an endorsement for the challenger wanting it more than the champion. Were Steve Austin the babyface in this match, he might been the first to go for a weapon or at least retaliate by grabbing one after HHH introduced the first. It was part of what made him cutting edge; a babyface who cheats? Of course! You're in Hell In A Cell! If it were me, I'd look for a weapon too! Not going for a weapon when you're opponent already has, is not admirable, it's stupid! And it's also cause for the fans to turn on you and embrace your heel counterpart.

Another example, is that HHH kept fighting. Even when he should have been out on his feet, he grabbed the sledgehammer hoping to get in one more shot even while Batista was lifting him up for the powerbomb. Who does that benefit other than HHH? You can't help but think that's cool and the kind of thing you can envision a babyface Mick Foley or Steve Austin do prior to losing to an overpowering opponent. It was akin to Foley's refusal to quit during his Rumble match w/the Rock. Austin's refusal to submit to Bret Hart. HBK giving Undertaker the thumb across the throat. All things that babyfaces do that earn respect and admiration from the crowd.

Lastly, HHH was the last man to leave the ring. Kayfabe-wise, I guess it made sense but it definitely robbed Batista of a hero's celebration in the ring. It also gave the fans the chance to shower HHH with adoration for putting up a hell of a fight. Which he did. I'm not knocking the guy. He made the match IMO. But all of this adds up to HHH coming out the real winner despite not winning the match.

These are the kinds of intricacies that make me love the performance aspect of wrestling...and why I have no friends outside my immediate family.

On a side note, Edge vs. Kane (w/the backstory of Lita leaving Kane for Edge) was BY FAR the best match on the card. It wasn't a technical masterpiece but just a fun brawl w/a great story and executed to perfection!

Also, what the hell were they thinking w/that whole Lillian Garcia/Viscera angle? Devoting THAT much time to D-Listers w/no impact on anyone's wrestling career??? Props to Lillian for displaying some very good acting chops but MAN! I kept waiting for it to end and it WOULDN'T! Fail.
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Old 10-27-2010, 07:00 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Did HHH kill Batista's career?

Not understanding how a babyface kicking out could turn the crowd against him. I certainly didn;t see it here, anyway. HHH didn't get over at all from the match, Batista was the clear favourite and him escaping the Cell first doesn;t mean anything and pretty much meant he was in better shape and was the better man in the match.

Quote:
Sure, Batista won, but he did so w/this superhuman effort that pushed the limits of believability beyond what I think even wrestling fans were able to accept.
This sounds like a Hulk Hogan-esque superhero to me, not many better ways to get someone over as a face.

HHH bringing in the weapons showed his desperation imo. He'd lost to Batista at Mania and at Backlash and since there aren;t any rules in the match, he's gonna be the prick to try to end Batista's career with any stupid thing he can find under the ring. Batista's the face, who the crowd loves, so if HHH wants to beat him with a chain, the crowd aren;t gonna like it. "HHH kept fighting" is a line I don;t get. Very little wrestlers (even heels) lay down in big match situations b/c they're so tired or shitty that beign a heel is making them a bad wrestler.

Plus, you're acting like Batista wasn;t pushed following this, which, he was. He was in the main event scene four and a half years after this match took place.
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Did HHH kill Batista's career?

Triple H MADE Batista's career.
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Did HHH kill Batista's career?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsHotInYuma View Post
I wasn't following the WWF at the time this HIAC match took place, but I know from what I've read that Batista was never fully embraced by fans and I wonder if this match had something to do with that.
And here lies your biggest problem.

You weren't following the WWE at the time of this match. And you're going off what you read that Batista was never fully embraced by the fans.

Now, I'm going to discount your opinion here (there are some valid points in your post but not in regards to the subject of Tripe H killing Batista's career) because I really have to question what you read that gave you the impression Batista wasn't fully embraced by the fans.

I certainly hope you're not basing that opinion of the comments you may have read in the IWC.

It was because of that feud with Triple H that Batista became such a huge star. If you were around at the time, despite what some members of the IWC may try to make you believe, Batista was easily the hottest act in the company.

I think it's a ridiculous thing for anyone to try and argue Batista wasn't fully embraced by the fans so I wouldn't put much stock in wherever you read that.

They're talking about a superstar, who in the span of 3 months, went from being a mid-carder with little reaction to the "The Man" with the biggest reactions. Batista was so hot in 2005 that had they put him in the ring with Undertaker, he'd be cheered over him.

The only thing that slowed his momentum was his injury in 2006 that kind of made him sit out 6 months while Cena went ahead in a big time for the WWE. Even upon his return, he was still a huge act.

You have to remember that Batista is someone who was pushed even harder than Cena in 2005 and he didn't receive a hint of a backlash and had people already worshipping him after his first injury. While Cena received that backlash in the midst of his first big run and probably began the movement of fans hating faces.

The only time you had Batista being turned on by the fans during his big face run was in the feud against Undertaker in 2007 and even during that time, there were occassions where he was getting cheered over him. In 2008, the fans were behind him while he was wheeling out Shawn Michaels on a stretcher.

This was long after his big face turn in 2005 where the average fan could mistake him for the next big thing in the WWE (he was treated as WWE's biggest star by international audiences for several years after all).

I'd say he was fully embraced by the fans. It's the reason why he was so successful in 2005, and what allowed him to get as far as he did after his momentum halting injury in 2006.

It's certainly true that Triple H came out looking really good from the feud in 2005 but Batista came out looking much better. Triple H has always been booked strong.

The only thing that hurt Batista's momentum was the big injury in 2006 which kind of took him out of the spotlight and to a lesser extent the move to Smackdown (a lesser exposed show, but even then, he remained hugely over and made several appearances on Raw throughout the rest of 05 and was the focal point of the big Raw/Smackdown feud).

Triple H did not kill Batista's career. He, along with the excellent booking, helped make him into a megastar.
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:47 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Did HHH kill Batista's career?

While I havn't read all of the OP's post, admitting you didn't watch the era when Batista was rising to the top then basing your opinion on one match is, like you say, a fast way to get flamed. HHH made Batista's career and while HHH isn't the best at getting people over (let's also not forget, Flair played an integral part in getting Batista over also), Batista managed to sky rocket from being D-Von Dudley's bitch to a top guy, and even had points in his career when he actually was *the* top guy.

Can't say i've ever been a huge Batista fan but he is a generally all-round great superstar. I always felt that the eggs were only placed in Batista's basket after Lesnar left and should Lesnar have stayed, Batista would've just stuck around the upper midcard.
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Did HHH kill Batista's career?

HHH didn't kill Batista's career, he made the bloody thing with tons of backstage politics and on-screen help.
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Did HHH kill Batista's career?

Batista has always been boring and overrated. It's only because of HHH and Evolution that he ever got over as much as he did.
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Old 10-27-2010, 10:03 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Did HHH kill Batista's career?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesar TKoW View Post
Triple H MADE Batista's career.
There isn't really anything else to say. Perception. It's a funny old thing.
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Old 10-27-2010, 10:18 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Did HHH kill Batista's career?

As much as people on here HATE triple h, there is no doubt, this man and ric flair MADE batista's career in the WWE.
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Old 10-28-2010, 05:23 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Re: Did HHH kill Batista's career?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiden2 View Post
Batista has always been boring and overrated. It's only because of HHH and Evolution that he ever got over as much as he did.
This!

Quote:
Originally Posted by just1988 View Post
HHH didn't kill Batista's career, he made the bloody thing with tons of backstage politics and on-screen help.
This....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesar TKoW View Post
Triple H MADE Batista's career.
and THIS!


Remember also HHH the bosses daughter.
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