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Old 09-10-2012, 01:00 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: MMA Discussion Thread

I consider him the best, but its not clear cut. Silva is clear cut, Penn is debateable. Understand?

I'm not self proclaimed mma elitest, that was levelled at me multiple time in the old thread by other posters. But yeah, keep trying lad, i know you've been watching mma for about 6 months now and you're just dying to try and proe you're a big man. Come on, have another go.

Gomi is past his prime, that doesn't stop anyone calling Fedor the GOAT, Liddell, Wandy etc for continuing to fight, and lose after already creating a lasting legacy.

Oh yes b/c one dimensional fighters cannot be considered. Of course, you have to be skilled at everything to be considered right? right? Aoki is a brilliant ground fighter with shitty striking. It makes him irrelevant nowadays in MMA, however in his prime he was class. I understand that you have no idea about that and you've likely never seen him fight but settle down. If being good at everything was part of your checklist for what makes a GOAT fighter then that takes out most of the fighters who helped build the sport, the Gracies being high up on that list.

How about you head off, watch some MMA and learn a thing or 2. then come back and try and discuss it.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:16 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush View Post
I consider him the best, but its not clear cut. Silva is clear cut, Penn is debateable. Understand?
which isn't what you said initially.

Quote:
I'm not self proclaimed mma elitest, that was levelled at me multiple time in the old thread by other posters. But yeah, keep trying lad, i know you've been watching mma for about 6 months now and you're just dying to try and proe you're a big man. Come on, have another go.
me and you both know that isn't true. you, on the other hand... man. after being wrong so many fucking times i think you already have one foot through the door.

Quote:
Gomi is past his prime, that doesn't stop anyone calling Fedor the GOAT, Liddell, Wandy etc for continuing to fight, and lose after already creating a lasting legacy.
yes the fuck it does. it's about best all time... you know... overall. not the best prime. people debate whether Fedor/Liddell/Wandy are the best of all time in their division ALL the fucking time. Fedor losing 3 times in a row is constantly mentioned, people use it as a way to prove he was fighting cans most of the time in Pride. that's just one example. the list goes on and on and on of fighters that hurt their legacy and people question it after a while. jesus fucking christ, do you seriously think people don't debate Jens Pulvers legacy being damaged? i know his prime was before you were even born more than likely, but just take a look at his record. it's that simple.

go to some events, talk to people at said events (or anywhere, really) read some forums outside of this one, you'll see that for yourself. i know that's a dark world for you, but if you tried it you'll see how cool it is. you might actually talk to someone who knows what he's talking about, so he could fill you in. you need it.

Quote:
Oh yes b/c one dimensional fighters cannot be considered. Of course, you have to be skilled at everything to be considered right? right? Aoki is a brilliant ground fighter with shitty striking. It makes him irrelevant nowadays in MMA, however in his prime he was class. I understand that you have no idea about that and you've likely never seen him fight but settle down. If being good at everything was part of your checklist for what makes a GOAT fighter then that takes out most of the fighters who helped build the sport, the Gracies being high up on that list.
there's a difference between what the Gracies did and what's being talked about here. stop reaching, for the love of god.

Aoki was brilliant on the ground, yes, but guess what? so is BJ Penn. meanwhile, BJ Penn has better takedown defense and infinitely better striking. BJ Penn's prime isn't comparable to Shinya Aoki's. at all. it just.... isn't.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:41 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ogorodnikov View Post
me and you both know that isn't true. you, on the other hand... man. after being wrong so many fucking times i think you already have one foot through the door.
except i'm not wrong and you're the one who bitched out and reported one of my posts b/c you couldn't handle an argument


Quote:
people debate whether Fedor/Liddell/Wandy are the best of all time in their division ALL the fucking time.
and that's what i said. They get talked about in this dicsussion even though the end to their careers (and Wandy's continuing career) wasn't stellar

Quote:
Fedor losing 3 times in a row is constantly mentioned, people use it as a way to prove he was fighting cans most of the time in Pride. that's just one example. the list goes on and on and on of fighters that hurt their legacy and people question it after a while. jesus fucking christ, do you seriously think people don't debate Jens Pulvers legacy being damaged? i know his prime was before you were even born more than likely, but just take a look at his record. it's that simple.
Yes, there is a limit to it. Fedor losing a few times in Strikeforce and then giving it up not too long after is an acceptable way of bowing out so to speak. Pulver has passed the point of a great fighter trying to get back and is damaging his legacy by not walking away. No one liks to bow out when they're on top, not many fighters do. There is an acceptable range of fights before enough is enough. Pulver reached that point a long time ago.

Quote:
there's a difference between what the Gracies did and what's being talked about here. stop reaching, for the love of god.

Aoki was brilliant on the ground, yes, but guess what? so is BJ Penn. meanwhile, BJ Penn has better takedown defense and infinitely better striking. BJ Penn's prime isn't comparable to Shinya Aoki's. at all. it just.... isn't.
No there isn't in terms of fighting ability. Royce Gracie was an incrediably one dimensional fighter, every fighter from that period was. Do you discount Ortiz's accomplishments b/c he was one dimensional? Do you call Cro Cop not one of the greats as he is more one dimensional than current fighters?

Aoki still has a better ground game than Penn, and i didn't say he was better. I said you can make a case. If Penn used his abilities to their potential then there would be no room for argument. That is what you're not understanding here at all. He would be like Silva, there is no other fighter who comes remotely close to him. That is the legacy that Penn could have had.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:44 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Well shit
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:00 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: MMA Discussion Thread

Penn could easily have been GOAT in the 155 division had he applied himself more. Problem is, he's surrounded by yes men and his work ethic isn't up to par with other fighters. BJ breaks as well, a lot. During and after fights.
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:01 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: MMA Discussion Thread

Round 2 between Rush and ogorodnikov
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:31 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush View Post
except i'm not wrong and you're the one who bitched out and reported one of my posts b/c you couldn't handle an argument
oh really?

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/11993691-post20.html

Quote:
If Penn applied himself then he'd be the GOAT lightweight in MMA.
http://www.wrestlingforum.com/11998378-post39.html

Quote:
As it stands he's still one of the best, and i still consider him the best ftr,
Quote:
If Penn put the work in, he'd not only be the LW GOAT, but up there for GOAT in all of MMA. Do you understand the point that is being made or do i have to spell it out for you again?
2 completely different things. you contradicted yourself again for the umpteenth time and can't handle it because of your massive internet ego. then again, i'm talking to someone who frequents a "Rants" section on a wrestling forum. i shouldn't expect much, if anything.

here it is, watered down:

1)you said BJ Penn could have been the best LW of all time if he applied himself
2)i tell you he is, in fact, the best LW of all time
3)you backtrack and say you said he's the best of all time (" As it stands he's still one of the best, and i still consider him the best ftr, but he's not as peerless as Silva and its a shame as he could have been. "), but he isn't far and away the best like he could've been

so basically you're saying you agree BJ Penn is the Goat, but initially you said he "could have been the GOAT" if he applied himself.

so which one was it? you can't have both. at least stick to your original point and try to defend while you think BJ Penn isn't the LW GOAT, which is exactly what you said in the first place. even though that would've been stupid as well, it wouldn't be as embarrassing as this.

and by the way, i didn't report you because i "couldn't handle the argument." i reported you to get you banned, and it worked flawlessly. how would "not handling the argument" even work? you could come back a week later and still respond, couldn't you? what the fuck?

Quote:
and that's what i said. They get talked about in this dicsussion even though the end to their careers (and Wandy's continuing career) wasn't stellar
hello? you said that Wand/Liddell/Fedor losing doesn't stop anyone from questioning their legacy, and i tell you it did. then you say "that's what i said."

are you even on the same fucking stratosphere anymore?

Quote:
Yes, there is a limit to it. Fedor losing a few times in Strikeforce and then giving it up not too long after is an acceptable way of bowing out so to speak. Pulver has passed the point of a great fighter trying to get back and is damaging his legacy by not walking away. No one liks to bow out when they're on top, not many fighters do. There is an acceptable range of fights before enough is enough. Pulver reached that point a long time ago.
acceptable way of bowing out? by who's standards? yours?

not that i care either way about Fedor, but him losing 3 times in a row when he was deemed almost unbeatable before that for sure damaged his legacy. it's going to mentioned a fucking LOT in any discussion of Fedor. it's not going to be "Generally accepted" as a way of going out just because you say so. luckily your words aren't the end all be all MMA Elitist.

Quote:
No there isn't in terms of fighting ability. Royce Gracie was an incrediably one dimensional fighter, every fighter from that period was. Do you discount Ortiz's accomplishments b/c he was one dimensional? Do you call Cro Cop not one of the greats as he is more one dimensional than current fighters?
i don't discredit anyone, unlike yourself Mr "Struve/Miocic is a useless fight."

i'm discussing BJ Penn being the best of all time. you brought in Shinya Aoki and said he's arguably the LW Goat, which is clearly fucking retarded beyond comprehension. why? because he was one dimensional and clearly didn't fight talent up to the level that BJ Penn did. then you bring in.... Royce Gracie. Royce Gracie is a pioneer of the sport, and introduced a style and showed you have to be well rounded. he's fucking magnificent, but as far as best of all time, no, he's not in that discussion. not that i'm discrediting what he did, i'm saying he wasn't the most skilled, with the most belts and more impressive title run and overall career. you are comparing two completely fucking different entities for reasons unknown.

Quote:
Aoki still has a better ground game than Penn, and i didn't say he was better. I said you can make a case. If Penn used his abilities to their potential then there would be no room for argument. That is what you're not understanding here at all. He would be like Silva, there is no other fighter who comes remotely close to him. That is the legacy that Penn could have had.
http://www.wrestlingforum.com/11993691-post20.html

If Penn applied himself then he'd be the GOAT lightweight in MMA.

If Penn applied himself then he'd be the GOAT lightweight in MMA.

If Penn applied himself then he'd be the GOAT lightweight in MMA.

first post made on the subject. by you. make up your mind. stop scrambling. all you had to say was "by far" at the end if you meant to say that, but you clearly didn't say that. you didn't think BJ Penn was the best at LW and now you're running around in a panic. it's actually kinda fucking hilarious, so wait, don't stop scrambling.

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Old 09-10-2012, 03:15 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: MMA Discussion Thread

for fucks sake, want a bit of cheese with your whine?

I've never seen anyone so pedantic about anything in my life. Relax son, get out of the house and breathe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogorodnikov View Post
and by the way, i didn't report you because i "couldn't handle the argument." i reported you to get you banned, and it worked flawlessly. how would "not handling the argument" even work? you could come back a week later and still respond, couldn't you? what the fuck?
so you bitched out. thats embarrassing.

Quote:
hello? you said that Wand/Liddell/Fedor losing doesn't stop anyone from questioning their legacy, and i tell you it did. then you say "that's what i said."
and i quote from your rambling diabtribe

Quote:
people debate whether Fedor/Liddell/Wandy are the best of all time in their division ALL the fucking time.
which is what i said. People do debate about these guys, thats what i said, and then you said the exact same thing there. Oh wait, am i being pedantic about the meaning behind those words. Jeez, i wonder how that feels

Quote:
not that i care either way about Fedor, but him losing 3 times in a row when he was deemed almost unbeatable before that for sure damaged his legacy. it's going to mentioned a fucking LOT in any discussion of Fedor. it's not going to be "Generally accepted" as a way of going out just because you say so. luckily your words aren't the end all be all MMA Elitist.
3 losses damaged his legacy? The criticisms of Fedor that get thrown up now, are the same that got thrown up beforehand.

Quote:
i don't discredit anyone, unlike yourself Mr "Struve/Miocic is a useless fight."
It doesn't deserve to be main eventing. This goes back to the amount of shows argument, even for a free show it is not a quality main event. Its nothing but a grab for money from people coming through the gate.

Quote:
i'm discussing BJ Penn being the best of all time. you brought in Shinya Aoki and said he's arguably the LW Goat, which is clearly fucking retarded beyond comprehension. why? because he was one dimensional and clearly didn't fight talent up to the level that BJ Penn did. then you bring in.... Royce Gracie. Royce Gracie is a pioneer of the sport, and introduced a style and showed you have to be well rounded. he's fucking magnificent, but as far as best of all time, no, he's not in that discussion. not that i'm discrediting what he did, i'm saying he wasn't the most skilled, with the most belts and more impressive title run and overall career. you are comparing two completely fucking different entities for reasons unknown.
are you calling my opinion fucking retarded. might have to cry to a mod about that. Hurts my massive internet ego, you're out of line

Talent that BJ Penn did? Aoki fought the best of the guys who weren't in the UFC (and some that were). Penn fought the better fighters, but its not like Aoki was ducking and taking easy fights.

You don't consider Royce Gracie to have had an impressive career? wow.

I bring up Gracie as an example of a great fighter, who is one dimensional. You do not consider anyone who isn't a completely well rounded fighter in you discussion so that counts out Cro Cop, Liddell, pretty much anyone who built the sport, etc. I'm not arguing that he is the GOAT, or that he should be compared with Penn or Aoki. Its a seperate point in the discussion, you don't ever seem to grasp that with anything. To be clear, b/c you're going to harp on it again, its a point against a point in your argument on what makes a fighter a GOAT. It isn't on a tangent, its related to your shaky argument.

Quote:
first post made on the subject. by you. make up your mind. stop scrambling. all you had to say was "by far" at the end if you meant to say that, but you clearly didn't say that. you didn't think BJ Penn was the best at LW and now you're running around in a panic. it's actually kinda fucking hilarious, so wait, don't stop scrambling.
which anyone with a brain could see is what i meant
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:50 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush View Post



so you bitched out. thats embarrassing.
because you can't read, i'll show you what i said yet again:

Quote:
and by the way, i didn't report you because i "couldn't handle the argument." i reported you to get you banned, and it worked flawlessly. how would "not handling the argument" even work? you could come back a week later and still respond, couldn't you? what the fuck?
do you have selective reading because of your shattered internet ego? you've done irreversible damage to it.


Quote:
which is what i said. People do debate about these guys, thats what i said, and then you said the exact same thing there. Oh wait, am i being pedantic about the meaning behind those words. Jeez, i wonder how that feels
oh my god. i legitimately think you have schizophrenia or something. like... you're actually fucking insane.

original post unfortunately made by you:

"Gomi is past his prime, that doesn't stop anyone calling Fedor the GOAT, Liddell, Wandy etc for continuing to fight, and lose after already creating a lasting legacy. "

you are saying that losing fights past your prime doesn't hurt your legacy initially. then you use an imaginary idea that "losing fights doesn't stop anyone from calling Fedor/Liddell/Wanderlei the arguable GOAT in their divisions." but that's the thing... it does. that's what i said. them losing fights past their prime HAS damaged their legacy in other peoples eyes. yes, some people like you don't think so (because you aren't very smart), but the point is that fighters losing DOES make people re-think about their legacy and status as best of all time.

i just... i can't possibly make things any less watered down than i already have. you're impossibly dense. just absolutely, completely and utterly impossibly dense. it's fucking scary.

Quote:
3 losses damaged his legacy? The criticisms of Fedor that get thrown up now, are the same that got thrown up beforehand.
what a fucking gem this is. hello, earth to MMA Elitist, PEOPLE USE HIS 3 LOSSES TO ACCENTUATE THAT HE WAS FIGHTING CANS THE WHOLE TIME. what part of that can't you possibly grasp? goodness fucking gracious, it's such a simple, common concept that is very, VERY frequently used in ANY MMA discussion about Fedor. if you knew what you were talking about, you'd know this.

because you need everything spoon-fed to you and brought down to like a first grade level, here, i'll dumb THIS down for you as well.

1)Fedor has amazing record (like 30-1! basically 30-0! wee! can you count to 30?)
2)People point out that he fought a lot of cans (there is a wikipedia article on what a tomato can is, since you don't know more than likely)
3) People argue one way or another
4) Fedor loses 3 fights in a row to good talent
5) anti-Fedor people use these fights to prove that he wasn't that good after all

once AGAIN, because you need it burned into your small mind, understand that despite the "argument" being the same for Fedor not being as good as he was before and after the losses, people use those losses to re-enforce their original point that he was fighting cans. which again, goes back to his legacy being damaged in general MMA discussions.

woah, that was fucking hard!!


Quote:
It doesn't deserve to be main eventing. This goes back to the amount of shows argument, even for a free show it is not a quality main event. Its nothing but a grab for money from people coming through the gate.
doesn't change the fact that you called it a useless fight and both fighters have potential. oh wait, let me guess, by useless fight you mean "it's a useful fight, but it's not a main event, anyone with a brain could see what i meant!" LOL


Quote:
are you calling my opinion fucking retarded. might have to cry to a mod about that. Hurts my massive internet ego, you're out of line
your thought process is messed up. i don't think messed up is the phrase for it, you just... can't read. i don't know what else to say.

Quote:
Talent that BJ Penn did? Aoki fought the best of the guys who weren't in the UFC (and some that were). Penn fought the better fighters, but its not like Aoki was ducking and taking easy fights.
who said Aoki was ducking or taking easy fights? i pointed out a fact --> BJ Penn fought better talent than Aoki. why would you even spend time responding to that if you clearly agree here? don't start making strawman arguments too man, come on. i know you're fighting a losing battle right from the get-go, but i'd rather you just stop responding and accept the fact that you're wrong for the zillionth time as opposed to constantly reaching for anything you can get your hands on. it's sad to see the MMA Elitist reduced to this.

Quote:
You don't consider Royce Gracie to have had an impressive career? wow.
point out where i said that. go ahead, i'll wait. oh wait, you can't. joker.

Quote:
I bring up Gracie as an example of a great fighter, who is one dimensional. You do not consider anyone who isn't a completely well rounded fighter in you discussion so that counts out Cro Cop, Liddell, pretty much anyone who built the sport, etc. I'm not arguing that he is the GOAT, or that he should be compared with Penn or Aoki. Its a seperate point in the discussion, you don't ever seem to grasp that with anything.
To be clear, b/c you're going to harp on it again, its a point against a point in your argument on what makes a fighter a GOAT. It isn't on a tangent, its related to your shaky argument.
goldmine. truly a goldmine. i wish i had a signature big enough to fit your senseless statements. i really do.

anyway, i never said someone who is one dimensional can't be the best in their division or in a sport in general. i said Aoki was one dimensional, compared to BJ Penn, who wasn't. i was using a specific argument with 2 people, it wasn't hypothetical. it's an odyssey for you to grasp this, much like anything else MMA related, i know, but there you have it.

and just because i feel like i have to repeat it just so you fully understand:

1) you are accusing me of saying a one dimensional fighter can't be the best in his division
2) you must have forgotten that i was directly comparing Aoki to Penn, not generally speaking.

please let me know if you need this repeated a 3rd, 4th, and 5th time. i feel like i'll probably have to, evidenced by your "so you actually bitched out" post to start off your wall of terrible illogic. i clearly refuted what you said, and you just repeated yourself. it's like arguing with a 10 year old. really, it is.


Quote:
which anyone with a brain could see is what i meant
so if someone thinks the following statement:

Quote:
If BJ Penn applied himself, he could have been the LW GOAT
doesn't correlate to this one:

Quote:
BJ Penn is the GOAT, but he could have been the GOAT far and away if he applied himself
they don't have a brain? stop while you're behind, kiddo.
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:57 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: MMA Discussion Thread

you sure like to strawman the hell out of any argument don't you. This is pointless, you're not arguing about what i'm saying. You're off in your own fantasy world, its pathetic.
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