Originally Posted by Freeloader

You don't even know what a troll is. You literally don't even know. Oh and the person you are talking to listed Shaq over Kobe. That's you, failing that reading comprehension shit you talked about earlier taht you've since been mighty quiet about after you realized you were dead wrong stating every list had Kobe.

Yeah I do. I have no problem with you having Shaq above Kobe. Even though I strongly disagree. I DO have problem though you saying Kobe is not Top 10 when most basketball analyst, GM's, fans, sports writers, do. Shaq was a career journeyman who played for 6 freaking teams. Not 2 but 6. The problem here is that people are comparing two people from two different positions and just cherry picking what was better between the two. A center is going to be dominating in a different way than a guard. MJ was never dominating as when Shaq was in his prime but you're not going to put Shaq over MJ. It's an endless debate with no definitive answer as much as people would like to argue otherwise. My main contention is that the reasoning used to put Shaq and Hakeem over Kobe is flawed.

Shaq's three year reign of dominance was better than anything Kobe did, so Shaq should be over Kobe. But under that logic doesn't that make Wilt the goat? Is only the peak important? Also if he was so great why did he need a pre-prime Kobe to bail him out so often in the real finals (the wcf)? If the FMVP were the playoffs mvp, Kobe might have stolen one from Shaq.

I think Shaq is great. In some ways I even think he's underrated. His footwork and positioning make Howard look like a child and his combination of agility and size was unmatched. He just happened to be a shit head and came in fat half the time and couldn't be counted on in the clutch. He often pouted and liked to create divisions in the locker room. To me he has yet to prove he could actually lead a team without Kobe on it. Kobe on the other hand has shown that he could do it with a far lesser center in Pau Gasol, then Bynum. Yeah Shaq went up against MJ and Hakeem, but he didn't win titles till Hakeem was old and MJ was gone. What does it mean that he happened to be there while those guys were around? The most difficult center Shaq went up against in the finals was an over the hill Mutombo.


How can a journeyman be better than a guy that has played for the Lakers and holds many team records. A team with many hall of famers and he holds these team records.

A majority of the greatest all time player list played for one and only organization or just 2.

Not freaking 6.

Shaq won those because he was the better player. You lose.

Kobe and Shaq = 3peated

Kobe without Shaq = 3 straight finals and a back to back championship.

Shaq without Kobe = 1 championship, 4 teams


Let's do a basic SAT question....who's more responsible?

Kobe outplayed Shaq in several playoff series as numbers (stats) indicate. I already posted those with facts. Shaq was just tad bit better in NBA Finals. But make no mistake about it Shaq doesn't win anything without Kobe.

The numbers say otherwise. You lose again.

Nope. Already posted the stats try to keep up please.:ti

Yeah, and I'll just keep copy/paste things I stated that you straight up REFUSE to answer because you can't handle it.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...in-crunch-time

You failure to address this is laughable. I've shit on everything you've posted. You're terrible at debate. 0-3, you struck out. Feel free to whiff 3 more times and you'll be well on your way to Rob Deer-ville shortly.

I should keep a list on everything you're getting pummeled on here.

-Cited reading comprehension as an issue, failed to read that others didn't list Kobe
-Doesn't know what a troll is
-States someone is a troll because it's literally his only defense as he gets used as a punching bag
-Refuses to acknowledge Kobe's low clutch numbers
-Completely failed to mention the Lakers kept Kobe because he was seven years younger. Dishonest, or didn't know?
-Claim no references were cited, replies with this when faced with Kobe not being clutch:

I already did or did you not read my entire post? Are all pro wrestling fans this brain dead. Man, hard to discus serious sports debates here. You lost this debate pages ago. Take your ball and just go home before you make bigger fool out of yourself.
-All list on thread I created close to everyone had Kobe in top 10 other than you. Go figure.
-While I listed evidence and science in my claim. Unlike you.
-Already did that in my previous post. Learn how to read brah.
-Lakers kept Kobe. It was Jerry Buss call which was right decision longer term due to being better player point blank. Shaq sucked after he left the Lakers. Fat and Lazy always out of shape. Shaq was just there to collect another paycheck. He was underachiever. I'm assuming you didn't read the articled I posted. While playing for the Heat Shaq wasn't every good. He played 2nd fiddle to Wade. FACT. He was just there along for the ride to easy championship. Shaq had to have some of best perimeter players in NBA history to win anything with Kobe, Wade, and Penny Hardaway. Hmm... Looks to me those some best guards in NBA history.
Wow, what great evidence. Is that a quote from your mom during the Bulls/Lakers game today while she was making you a bologna sandwich?

Weak comeback.

What's hilarious, is that you know for a fact you're getting you're ass kicked here, and your stalling hoping I'll just go away so you can claim some type of hollow victory as result.

Funny thing is I find you getting owned badly in this debate. Run along now. Time for you to go back to basement mommy's boy. All you have is one single source while I had multiple. With science on my side. - Phil Jackson called Kobe the best all around player he ever coached in 2001.

- Shaq called Kobe the best player in the NBA in 2001

- ESPN called Kobe the best player in the league in 2001

- ( I feel like Kobe was just as important prolly more so...he played full court defense...he was the first option in crunch time and he facilitated the offense...)


[/color]

This is a valid argument, to a degree. I stated earlier (before Chillez began destroying himself) that Charles Barkley was worth mentioning. But if longevity is overrated, is Kareem Abdul Jabbar slightly overrated? There are players who have had some stellar shorter careers in sports - Bo Jackson immediately jumps to mind. Maybe these examples are a bit extreme, but it's worth considering.

Malone missed less games than Charles did. Malone was a much better defender. Barkley was one of the worst defenders of all time. Won two MVP's to Charles's one. Sure Charles 93 season was great, but Malone's consistency should count for something. Thus why I gave him the nod. [/color]

Originally Posted by Chillez

Shaq , Magic , West have said - Kobe is the greatest Laker of all-time.

Originally Posted by Champ

mostly because shaq was only there for eight years while kobe has spent his entire career there.

Originally Posted by Red Viper

Freeloader is a Celtics fan, of course he thinks like that. :ti

Originally Posted by Chillez

[b]Kobe ages 21 - 27

27.6 PPG 6.3 REB 5.1AST .7BLK

Shaq ages 21 - 27

Originally Posted by Freeloader

This Celtics fan listed Magic Johnson over Larry Bird.



This isn't relevant to why the Lakers kept Kobe. He was younger AT THAT TIME is why they kept him.

Shaq won finals MVP. All three times. I didn't pick it, don't blame me.

You also failed to address all of this:

Sounds like you are making excuses now. Hopefully you are starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Their might be some hope for you after all. Lakers went to Finals 2004 lost and shipped Shaq lazy ass out of town. Kobe didn't want put up with him anymore. Looking back at it. It was right move. Yeah he did BUT he got carried to finals in 01, and 02 Kobe had bail his ass out in 4th quarter. Shaq was never that good of team leader. Way overrated.

Still waiting for a reply to all of that. All you are addressing is the one area where you think you have an argument. The original argument was Kobe for being top 10. You also said:

"How can a journeyman be better than a guy that has played for the Lakers and holds many team records. A team with many hall of famers and he holds these team records."

How many years has Kobe been on the Lakers? How many years was Kareem, Magic, and Shaq with the Lakers? This is once again key information you omit while making statements like this. This isn't even about the Lakers, irrelevant topic.

That's testament to his high level play for long time. Longevity if you know anything of history of the game Kareem and Malone were same way. That helps anyone career not hurts. It's like A) Will take player with higher peak/prime for few years 3-5 or B) Player with elite level of play for 13-14 years. I'll choice (B).

Phil Jackson's opinions are scientific now? Wow. If Phil said Kobe was better than MJ, then that makes it true? Your own logic indicate that is the case. BTW - was Jordan or LEbron in the league in 2001? Was Bird, Magic, Russell, Chamberlin? So how is this scientific? Oh right, it isn't. Again. You know it isn't either, you're just trying to smokescreen. Let's add this to the list at the end now. And thanks for citing Shaq's superior age 21-27 numbers.


Read his book sometime Phil had great comments on Kobe along with some negative ones. Although postive out ways the good. Who gives a shit what era they played in. Don't play this what "if" game moron. We could do this same thing with any athlete in any sport for any time. It's irrelevant. Phil Jackson, Jerry West, MJ, Magic, Shaq, >>>> Your stupid opinion. BTW centers shoot higher percentage than guards do FYI. The numbers were super close. Please study or learn history of the game before you pretend to.

More with the fucking Lakers shit? You made the thread, and you think it's about the Lakers now. You don't even know...ahahaha. I'm not even done with this post and I'm quoting myself.

You Jelly? Someone sounds mad... Lakers have 7 or 8 of top 10 players of all-time. Deal with it.

Here's the best part. You;re now arguing with yourself here apparently.



So your past self had Kareem and Magic above Kobe, but your present self is arguing Kobe as the greatest Laker as some type of "evidence?"

First Kareem won title with the Milwaukee Bucks before he came to the Lakers. He also was in his late 20's when he joined the Lakers. And yes I have Kareem above Kobe all-time he didn't play his entire career as a Laker. Duh. Kobe and Magic are arguably now neck and neck right now. I was basically had Kobe above Magic by end of his career.

To Recap

-Cited reading comprehension as an issue, failed to read that others didn't list Kobe
-Doesn't know what a troll is
-States someone is a troll because it's literally his only defense as he gets used as a punching bag
-Refuses to acknowledge Kobe's low clutch numbers
-Completely failed to mention the Lakers kept Kobe because he was seven years younger. Dishonest, or didn't know?
-Claim no references were cited, replies with this when faced with Kobe not being clutch
-Listed Kobe Bryant as the greatest Laker of all time as "evidence", argues with himself that Kobe is better than Magic Johnson
-[b]Cited Phil Jackson's opinion as scientific evidence, and because he said Kobe was the best player in 2001, that he's top 10 and above numerous players who were not playing.

Originally Posted by Icon_Vs_Icon

I dont understand how everyone considers Jordan the GOAT but then not put Kobe second. Even Jordan said he is the only player worthy of comparison to him. Shaq is overrated and only did so well cuz of his size. He never was on a team that didnt have a top five guard in his prime, first Penny then Kobe then Wade.