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Old 03-10-2013, 11:43 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

Why aren't we having the Shaq vs Kobe argument with Oscar vs Kareem? Oh wait
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:49 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

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Why aren't we having the Shaq vs Kobe argument with Oscar vs Kareem? Oh wait
haha. Yeah that guy makes great troll. Gotta give him some credit for trying.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:51 AM   #73 (permalink)
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In keeping Kobe Bryant, not Shaq, Jerry Buss made right call.

It was the summer of 2004, and an aging sports owner was faced with a decision for the ages. It was a choice between two small words with giant ramifications. It was a hurried selection that would last forever.

Kobe or Shaq?

The debate had raged for years, and now Lakers owner Jerry Buss felt he had to end it. Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal, filled with blatant animosity stemming from the deepest of jealousies, could no longer play together. Even three championships couldn't bond them and, at the first possible moment that summer, they both attempted to flee.

O'Neal begged to be traded. Bryant opted out of his contract. Buss felt he couldn't keep them both. He believed he had to pick one. This Hall of Famer or that Hall of Famer? This son, or that son? In today's era of corporate ownership, it was the sort of personnel decision that is rarely made by a single person.

Yet Buss alone made the call. It was one of the boldest calls in the history of Southern California sports. It became one of the most criticized calls in the history of the NBA. Yet Buss unflinchingly made it, and stood behind it, and, nine years later, on a Wednesday night in New Orleans, his choice could be seen storming downcourt for a clinching dunk and a gritted-teeth growl as the Lakers came from a 25-point deficit to win.

Even those of us who have resisted saying it for years can say it now, because a man's legacy has been completed by it.

Jerry Buss picked Kobe Bryant, and he was right.

Jerry Buss traded O'Neal in what this columnist called a "Shaqtacular mistake," yet Buss was right, and continues to be right, today more than ever, his mortality continually honored by a guy playing at the level of the immortals.

The uniform patch is sweet, the memorial service was moving, but less than a month after Buss' death, his memory is most alive every night through a scarred veteran whose 17th season might be his most impactful yet.

Buss picked Bryant as if he knew that not only would he win two more championships with some of his best teams, but that he would shoulder the Lakers' most disappointing team with dignity and strength through a season of uncertainty and loss.

Bryant will not be the most valuable player. But in some ways he's never been better. He has furiously pushed the Lakers through their dysfunction and chaos while chugging his legs at a level never seen by someone burdened by so many miles.

He has led them to a win while scoring 40 points and shooting 65%. He has led them to a win while making one basket and not taking a shot in the first half.

He led them to three consecutive wins with double-digit assists in each game. There have been 18 games in which he did not miss a free throw. And, oh yeah, just for grins, Wednesday night in New Orleans, he played the entire second half and scored 13 of the team's final 16 points.

He has been the scorer, the facilitator, the scowling tough guy, the hilarious tweeting guy and, against all gravitational odds, the slamming guy. Seriously, have you ever seen Kobe Bryant dunk like this? Not in the last five years, right? He slammed on Atlanta's Josh Smith while scoring the final six points in a Lakers victory. He soared on Brooklyn's Gerald Wallace while leading the Lakers to a short-handed win there.

Bryant is leaping higher now than he did five years ago — literally and figuratively — thanks to his off-season blood treatments in Germany and his year-round work ethic. Few saw this coming from a 34-year-old who has already played 192 more games than Michael Jordan played in his career. Hardly anyone believed this was possible from a man who last spring in Oklahoma City looked old and slow and on the verge of being done.

Nobody believed in Bryant like Jerry Buss.

Think about it. Buss chose an immature Bryant over O'Neal during a summer in which Bryant was facing sexual assault charges that eventually were dropped. Buss chose Bryant even though he had pouted his way through some games, shot his way out of others, and had even undergone knee surgery without telling the team.

Buss chose Bryant over a three-time Finals MVP when Shaq was seemingly still in his prime, and this column space read, "The weathered hands that built this tradition are still powerful enough to unravel it."

It turns out, Jerry Buss didn't unravel anything. He cemented it. He gave the franchise to a kid who has grown into a man who is carrying it brilliantly in his memory, a living last will and testament, an amazing grace.

Link: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar...akers-20130308

It's okay Freeloader you gave it good try bud.
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:36 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

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Originally Posted by BruiserKC View Post
Ultimately, Russell has way more rings...but I try to figure in stats somewhere.

Karl Malone...36,928 career points, 14,968 rebounds, 5,238 assists
Bill Russell...14,522 points, 21,620 boards, 4,100 assists

Plus, Russell and Wilt for their generation were head-over-heels better than pretty much everyone at that time. The gap was considerably less during Karl's time. Plus, if he had stayed healthy that one more season, he'd be the all-time leading scorer.
They didn't track steals and blocks in Russell's era. Its safe to say Russell would be the all time leading shot blocker.

Oscar used to get a lot of praise and some people thought he was in the same tier as Russell/Wilt so I don't think those two were considered a notch above everyone else although, generally speaking, those two are considered the top two players of the 60s.

Malone was good but his entire case stems from his remarkable longevity. Prime wise, I don't even rank him above Barkley who was a flat-out better player but lacks his longevity and work ethic. When they were both at the top of their game, there's no question in my mind Barkley could do better because of versatility, mindset and ability to do more things on the court. Malone had better defense though. If you compare their MVP years, there's no doubt 93 Barkley is better than 97 or 99 Malone.

Career numbers also don't take playoff performances into account where Malone used to have a big drop-off in his numbers while Barkley was able to thrive and excel because of his skillset. Barkley was having big games in the clutch, putting his team on the back in the 4th while Malone was literally fading away, scared to shoot the ball or create a quality look for himself. He had like two moves on the block and relied way more on Stockton than Barkley did on anyone else because he was a lot better at creating his own shot.

In the end, Malone does rank above Barkley because of his longevity as well as work ethic because Barkley simply didn't give two shits about keeping himself in shape which does set a bad example for everyone else but how good you were at your best (peak) and how long you sustained that level (prime) matters more to me and that's why I don't really rank Malone that high. A guy like Duncan is an easy, easy choice for me over him.
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Old 03-10-2013, 07:44 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

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Originally Posted by Chillez View Post
haha. Yeah that guy makes great troll. Gotta give him some credit for trying.


You don't even know what a troll is. You literally don't even know. Oh and the person you are talking to listed Shaq over Kobe. That's you, failing that reading comprehension shit you talked about earlier taht you've since been mighty quiet about after you realized you were dead wrong stating every list had Kobe.

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Originally Posted by Chillez View Post
Shaq won those (FMVP) due to East having no center to contain or slow Shaq down that was basic main reason
Shaq won those because he was the better player. You lose.

Quote:
Kobe is clutch point blank.
The numbers say otherwise. You lose again.

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You going keep going? This making you look pretty bad man.
Yeah, and I'll just keep copy/paste things I stated that you straight up REFUSE to answer because you can't handle it.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...in-crunch-time

You failure to address this is laughable. I've shit on everything you've posted. You're terrible at debate. 0-3, you struck out. Feel free to whiff 3 more times and you'll be well on your way to Rob Deer-ville shortly.

I should keep a list on everything you're getting pummeled on here.

-Cited reading comprehension as an issue, failed to read that others didn't list Kobe
-Doesn't know what a troll is
-States someone is a troll because it's literally his only defense as he gets used as a punching bag
-Refuses to acknowledge Kobe's low clutch numbers
-Completely failed to mention the Lakers kept Kobe because he was seven years younger. Dishonest, or didn't know?
-Claim no references were cited, replies with this when faced with Kobe not being clutch:

Quote:
Originally shrieked by Chillez
Kobe is clutch point blank
Wow, what great evidence. Is that a quote from your mom during the Bulls/Lakers game today while she was making you a bologna sandwich?

What's hilarious, is that you know for a fact you're getting your ass kicked here, and your stalling hoping I'll just go away so you can claim some type of hollow victory as result.

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Originally Posted by BrosOfDestruction View Post

Malone was good but his entire case stems from his remarkable longevity. Prime wise, I don't even rank him above Barkley who was a flat-out better player but lacks his longevity and work ethic. When they were both at the top of their game, there's no question in my mind Barkley could do better because of versatility, mindset and ability to do more things on the court. Malone had better defense though. If you compare their MVP years, there's no doubt 93 Barkley is better than 97 or 99 Malone.
This is a valid argument, to a degree. I stated earlier (before Chillez began destroying himself) that Charles Barkley was worth mentioning. But if longevity is overrated, is Kareem Abdul Jabbar slightly overrated? There are players who have had some stellar shorter careers in sports - Bo Jackson immediately jumps to mind. Maybe these examples are a bit extreme, but it's worth considering.

Malone missed less games than Charles did. Malone was a much better defender. Barkley was one of the worst defenders of all time. Won two MVP's to Charles's one. Sure Charles 93 season was great, but Malone's consistency should count for something. Thus why I gave him the nod.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:28 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

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Ok well if Kobe is top 10, how do you place him there when some have Shaq at like 9th or 10th? He's not above Shaq on the list. Despite comparisons, Kobe is not Jordan.
I don't know if you read all of my post but I'm fairly sure I explained why I had Duncan and Kobe over Shaq. Even then, I said it was close. I have Kobe/Duncan/Shaq in the same tier anyways. I just feel Duncan and Kobe have the opportunity to separate themselves from Shaq since both are still playing very well and can further establish their legacies.

Quote:
I am entirely open to placing Thomas ahead of Malone, if people want to judge greatness on titles.
It's not solely about titles, otherwise Russell would be #1 GOAT no questions asked. Titles are however, a major factor in top 10 lists, at least for me they are. It's why Malone is just outside the top 10 for me. He's easily in the 11-15 range. His longevity/durability is undeniable.


Quote:
The two aren't comparable. Furthermore - when did I place Lebron in the top 10? Verdict is still out there, I simply aid he has the potential to make the list.

Ehh, I wasn't very clear there. I was saying you're penalizing and essentially taking away Kobe's first 3 titles of which he was a HUGE factor in simply because he was the 2nd option in the Finals (already explained why it was just smarter to go through Shaq). It's one of your arguments for why Kobe is not a top 10 player since he 'rode' Shaq. Yet, you're saying LeBron can potentially challenge MJ and surpass the likes of Magic, Russell, Kareem, etc despite already having 2 dreadful performances in the Finals, one of which he was in his absolute prime and the clear cut favorite.

So why penalize Kobe for winning but not LeBron for losing? People seem to love pointing out Kobe's shortcomings in the Finals (not winning FMVP) against him for GOAT lists so why should we ignore LeBron's shortcomings?

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Old 03-10-2013, 10:04 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

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Ehh, I wasn't very clear there. I was saying you're penalizing and essentially taking away Kobe's first 3 titles of which he was a HUGE factor in simply because he was the 2nd option in the Finals (already explained why it was just smarter to go through Shaq). It's one of your arguments for why Kobe is not a top 10 player since he 'rode' Shaq. Yet, you're saying LeBron can potentially challenge MJ and surpass the likes of Magic, Russell, Kareem, etc despite already having 2 dreadful performances in the Finals, one of which he was in his absolute prime and the clear cut favorite.

So why penalize Kobe for winning but not LeBron for losing? People seem to love pointing out Kobe's shortcomings in the Finals (not winning FMVP) against him for GOAT lists so why should we ignore LeBron's shortcomings?
Fair enough. My statements about Kobe aren't bashing him, merely pointing out that he had a seriously dominant player helping him win 3 of his 5 rings. He wasn't the best player. Jordan never had that, Lebron has never had that, Bird never had that, and despite some thinking Magic Johnson had that - he won Finals MVP with the Lakers more than Kareem ever had. I simply have trouble giving Kobe 5 rings like "he" won them. Yes, basketball is a team game, but I just don't buy him as elite as the others named here and elsewhere when those players led their team. That's all.

I don't penalize Lebron for losing as much because he's been the NBA's version of John Elway for the past several years before last year. He was literally carrying the Cavs to the playoffs and even the Finals. His career is also not even close to over, so I hold out on a final verdict there. But I think he is in a good place and might be able to threepeat.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:57 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Fair enough. My statements about Kobe aren't bashing him, merely pointing out that he had a seriously dominant player helping him win 3 of his 5 rings. He wasn't the best player. Jordan never had that, Lebron has never had that, Bird never had that, and despite some thinking Magic Johnson had that - he won Finals MVP with the Lakers more than Kareem ever had. I simply have trouble giving Kobe 5 rings like "he" won them. Yes, basketball is a team game, but I just don't buy him as elite as the others named here and elsewhere when those players led their team. That's all.
Kobe wasn't even at his peak then. When he won those rings with Shaq he was in his early 20's.

Plus you have to consider that Shaq needed Kobe just as much as Kobe needed him.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:01 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

^^^please don't double post.


Freeloader is a Celtics fan, of course he thinks like that.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:21 AM   #80 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

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Originally Posted by Freeloader View Post
Fair enough. My statements about Kobe aren't bashing him, merely pointing out that he had a seriously dominant player helping him win 3 of his 5 rings. He wasn't the best player. Jordan never had that, Lebron has never had that, Bird never had that, and despite some thinking Magic Johnson had that - he won Finals MVP with the Lakers more than Kareem ever had. I simply have trouble giving Kobe 5 rings like "he" won them. Yes, basketball is a team game, but I just don't buy him as elite as the others named here and elsewhere when those players led their team. That's all.
Hate to quote myself but...

Quote:
Obviously prime Shaq was alpha on those teams compared to a young up and coming Kobe but let's not act like Kobe was a role player. It's like saying Duncan and Shaq were carried to their last couple championships since Wade and Parker got the MVPs. It's absurd. I mean, Kobe put up some insane numbers himself. Yes, Shaq definitely deserved those Finals MVPs I'm not arguing that but it was just smarter to go through your dominant big when he's up against Eastern Conference teams with forgettable starting centers like Rik Smits and Todd Macculloch (yup).
I see your point but Kobe was a fairly young player during the three-peat years, it would've been stupid for him to try and outplay a prime Shaq (see 2004 NBA Finals) when he wasn't ready to lead to a team. Honestly, I'd think all the guys you pointed out (Bird, LeBron, etc) except maybe Jordan, would all play second fiddle to a prime Shaq. I mean, we're talking about a guy that at his peak was probably the most dominant player since Wilt. Again, let's not act as if Kobe was a role player in those championship runs. He was pretty much the second best player on the court, nothing wrong with that when other guy is a prime Shaq.

Headliner said it best:

Quote:
Shaq needed Kobe just as much as Kobe needed him.
Regardless, Kobe proved himself with 3 straight Finals appearances in the post-Shaq era. Coming out with 2 FMVP, same as Bird. Enough to cement him in the top 10, in my opinion.

Quote:
I don't penalize Lebron for losing as much because he's been the NBA's version of John Elway for the past several years before last year. He was literally carrying the Cavs to the playoffs and even the Finals. His career is also not even close to over, so I hold out on a final verdict there. But I think he is in a good place and might be able to threepeat.
Eastern Conference was incredibly weak back in 2007, aside from the aging Pistons. Obviously you can't really blame a young LeBron too much for that Finals loss. He was phenomenal in that 2007 playoff run up until the Finals. People do love to underrate those Cavs teams though. Yeah, they didn't really have a second option but those teams were perfectly built for LeBron. Terrible teams don't win 60+ games.

There's really no excuse for the 2011 Finals though. He had Wade and Bosh in their primes which lost to a team similar to that 2007 Cavs team that didn't have a real 2nd option either... Weird, guess it can be done?







Really wish there was a Dirk face.

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