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Old 03-05-2013, 02:04 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

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Originally Posted by Ether View Post
No he wasn't, he never won a ring as the #1 option back in 2009 and was being labeled as a team killer, he wasn't even close. I put Hakeem above him because if you ask anyone who to start a team with, you're picking Hakeem over Kobe 100/100 times, likewise with everyone else in my top 10 except maybe Bird because Kobe kills him in longevity, and West if you're uneducated and just think he was a short white guy who only shot jumpers. My top 10 isn't based on just ringzz!!! I'm basing it on peak, longevity, all around game, leadership, MVPs, etc. And before someone brings up Kobe should have won MVP in his 35 PPG season, yes, but he robbed CP3 of an MVP in 07-08 so it evens out.
He was #1 option in 2009 and had case for regular season MVP that season over Lebron. 2009 NBA Finals MVP - 32.4 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 7.4 APG. Kobe's Highest Finals AVERAGE: 32.4 PPG Lebron's SINGLE GAME Finals High: 32 points.

Kobe greatest playoff series. Kobe's Greatest Playoff Hits

(Please Skip to the bottom if you do not wish to read)

After clinching Game 6 of the 2010 WCF against the Phoenix Suns, Kobe has built himself an impressive list of great NBA Playoff Series throughout his career(see below).

Although career averages may say otherwise to a few people, Kobe Bryant has made himself into one of the best NBA Playoff performers of his generation. Historically, Kobe(at the end of 2010 WCF) has given himself 75 30+ point performances in his playoff career with only Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Michael Jordan in front of him. Kobe ranks #4 All-Time in Career Playoff Point Totals. #8 Kobe Bryant's Playoff Career

In his early career, almost all NBA fans remember the #8 Kobe Bryant. Young, Athletic, Cocky, and Talented. As one of the NBA's brightest stars, Kobe was great during the regular season, but he was just a sidekick to Shaq having one of the greatest peaks ever in NBA history. #8 Kobe Bryant was spectacular during the regular season(and Yes, he did have many clutch and memorable moments during the playoffs), but was inconsistent during the playoffs at times. Kobe's only truly consistent playoff run with Shaq, was during the 2001 Playoffs where Kobe averaged 29/7/6.

Although many people will disagree with me, Shaq was clearly #1 on the early 2000's Lakers teams. While still being a superstar and one of the best perimeter players in the league at the time, Kobe was still #2, arguably the greatest #2 option in NBA History.

Kobe didn't have the numbers, consistency, or leadership to be able to guide his team through the playoffs like Shaq. Who could blame him though? He was only 21-23 years old at the time.


Post-Shaq and #24 Kobe Bryant's Playoff Career

Now Post-Shaq Era. Kobe Bryant has a new team and a new number #24. #24 Kobe Bryant has had great statistical averages starting from the 2006 playoffs onwards. The series against the 2010 PHX Suns, proves to me why #24>#8 during the playoffs. Better numbers, and better leadership. Post-Shaq, Kobe Bryant(In My Opinion) has been the best player in the Playoffs. Combining Statistics, Leadership, and Clutch play, no player has been better than post-Shaq Era Kobe Bryant.

At the age of 31, Kobe Bryant has posted arguably the greatest playoff series of his already accomplished career. Averaging 34/7/8 on 52%fg shooting. Many point to 2001 WCF as Kobe's best, but imo 2010 WCF Kobe was even better since Kobe has a higher role and responsibility to his team than his younger 22 year old counterpart. When we look back at Kobe's career, I belive more people will remember his career as #24 rather than #8 due to his higher degree of playoff success individually. Because that's where legends are made.

After the 2010 WCF, I can confidently say Kobe has made himself the best playoff-performer of his generation.

Post-Shaq Era(05-06 Onwards) Kobe Bryant Playoff Averages:
79 Games:

29.8 ppg 5.7 rpg 5.4 apg 1.5 spg 0.7 bpg 3.3 tov
47%FG/35%3p/84%FT/57%TS/51%eFG

Below are Kobe Bryant's Best Playoff series of his career.

2001 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Sacramento Kings

35.0 ppg 9.0 rpg 4.3 apg 47%fg 20%3P 86%FT

2001 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs San Antonio Spurs

33.3 ppg 7.0 rpg 7.0 apg 51%fg 36%3P 77%FT

2003 1st Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Minnesota Timberwolves

31.8 ppg 5.2 rpg 6.7 apg 43%fg 36%3P 87%FT

2008 1st Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Denver Nuggets

33.5 ppg 5.3 rpg 6.3 apg 50%fg 33%3P 74%FT

2008 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Utah Jazz

33.2 ppg 7.0 rpg 7.2 apg 49%fg 21%3P 83%FT

2008 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs San Antonio Spurs

29.2 ppg 5.6 rpg 3.8 apg 53%fg 33%3P 91%FT

2009 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Denver Nuggets

34.0 ppg 5.8 rpg 5.8 apg 48%fg 34%3P 93%FT

2009 NBA Finals Kobe Bryant vs Orlando Magic

32.4 ppg 5.6 rpg 7.4 apg 43%fg 36%3P 84%FT

2010 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Utah Jazz

32.0 ppg 3.8 rpg 5.8 apg 52%fg 25%3P 87%FT

2010 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Phoenix Suns

33.7ppg 7.2 rpg 8.3 apg 52%fg 43%3P 88%FT
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:13 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

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I don't really like listing the GOATs in order from 1-10, I honestly prefer doing it in tiers. It's fairly difficult to rank these guys in sequential order since they all played in different eras, rules, pace, etc. Doesn't help that many of us never really saw them perform in their time and can only go by limited footage and stats. So...

Not gonna lie, I'm probably a bit biased considering I'm a Lakers fan.

1. Mj
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Bird

I think you can put almost all of them in any order from 1-6. Well, all of them aside from maybe Bird.

7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Shaq

I have Duncan and Kobe above Shaq, barely. Shaq's dominance was absolutely insane but Duncan and Kobe's success/skill edges him out to me. Kobe and Timmy are still somehow going strong and both of them are having incredible years considering their age and mileage. I can see either of them cracking that top tier if they get 1 more ring or even another Finals appearance.

10. Hakeem

The 10th spot is the toughest for me, I can see arguments for Oscar Robertson, The Logo, and maybe a few other guys but all of those guys have key flaws. Hakeem gets the spot for me because his game and footwork was just beautiful. Love watching videos of him school David Robinson.

LeBron at this stage in his career is possibly already in the top 15-20. I see him as a wing version of Shaq. Absolutely dominant and unstoppable. If he ages well and continues to build his resume, he'll most likely exceed the Kobe/Duncan/Shaq tier. I don't know if he can pass MJ as the GOAT though. LeBron has already failed miserably twice in the Finals whereas MJ was almost always flawless.


...


Now, to address the Kobe hate.



Ehh, I don't like how people completely discredit Kobe's first 3 titles. Obviously prime Shaq was alpha on those teams compared to a young up and coming Kobe but let's not act like Kobe was a role player. It's like saying Duncan and Shaq were carried to their last couple championships since Wade and Parker got the MVPs. It's absurd. I mean, Kobe put up some insane numbers himself. Yes, Shaq definitely deserved those Finals MVPs I'm not arguing that but it was just smarter to go through your dominant big when he's up against Eastern Conference teams with forgettable starting centers like Rik Smits and Todd Macculloch (yup).



Likability has nothing to do with being the best player to ever step on the court. If that truly was the case, Magic would be everyone's GOAT and not MJ. Jordan was a total douche bag and probably still is an over-competitive douche, much like Kobe. I mean, the man was known for getting into fights with his teammates! He even punched Steve Kerr iirc. The amount of ridicule he would get now for antics like that in this 24-hour media cycle is unimaginable.

Also, you penalize Kobe for 'riding' Shaq in his first 3 titles (he was still the 2nd best player on the court in those Finals) yet you're not penalizing LeBron for laying the biggest egg ever for a GOAT candidate in the 2011 Finals?
It's nice to see follow Lakers fan on here. But you should have Kobe ranked above Bird. Kobe will end up having the much better career. Bird's knowledge of the game and decision making are the best ever but he wasn't as physically talented. To me, how people rank Bird, however great he was, over Kobe is beyond me.

His stats in general look amazing. 28/10/7. His efficiency in shooting? Right around 50% and 38% in 3FGA's.

However, considering the pace of the game, and generally, the lack of defense or lack of advanced defenses, one can tell that his stats are inflated compared to players of the modern era.

Then, comes the team. Bird played with some of the most stacked teams in NBA history for the better part of his career. Kobe had to play a few years through the best part of his prime with Kwame, Smush, Luke, and Brian Cook as starters.

To me, Kobe is ARGUABLY in the Top 5, over Bird. He's not anywhere near the Top 2 (MJ, Kareem), but he also has a case over the usual suspects for the #3 spot (Magic, Russell).

It's not something anywhere near solidified, but Kobe does have a case for Top 5. You can argue it, you can make compelling arguments as to peaks, primes, and achievements. He has a case. Kobe has been able to be one of the leagues top players consistently for so long. Plus, when it comes to career achievements, the numbers speak for themselves. Kobe has more all star appearances, championships, and first teams among other things. Kobe > Bird.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:10 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Yeah, you're right. I thought you meant before the 08-09 season for some reason. Even then, he wasn't consensus top 10. 1 ring as the #1 option? No way I'd have him in my top 10. Everyone else in my top 10 has at least two.

And imo without Kobe, Shaq isn't winning any rings if you replace him with (insert good-great SG here, besides peak McGrady) besides 2000. As Myst brought up earlier, people like AI and Carter aren't taking over games the way Kobe did when Shaq was in foul trouble. Can you imagine the arguments AI and Shaq would have over touches?

As for Bird, he's a very curious case. If someone put Shaq over him, I'd have no problem with that. Honestly, I think I might too. Shaq edges him in:
Longevity
Rings (#3 as the #1 option, same as Bird)
Peak

Same with people like Kobe, Duncan, etc. I haven't seen many lists without Bird in the top 10, but the more I read about him, the more I'm skeptical of putting him over people like Shaq/Kobe/Duncan.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:06 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

Kobe over Bird

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Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
These lists are subjective, filled with bias, and pointless to argue. How many of you watched the majority of Wilt's, Russell's, Kareem's, Oscar's, etc careers? None of you? So how are you going to rank them properly?

I would take Kobe over Hakeem btw as well as Bird. Hakeem was great, but to deny Kobe's greatness due to idiotic labels such as team killer when he had already been a major piece in championship runs is . the fuck are you on about ether.
It's ironic that you criticize people for ranking Wilt, Russell, Kareem, etc. despite not watching the majority of their careers but yet you turn around and rank Kobe over Hakeem & Bird when you didn't watch the majority of their career either

Pretty sure Bird retired before you were born and Hakeem was either retired or at the last stages of his career in Toronto when you started watching basketball.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:44 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Kobe over Bird



It's ironic that you criticize people for ranking Wilt, Russell, Kareem, etc. despite not watching the majority of their careers but yet you turn around and rank Kobe over Hakeem & Bird when you didn't watch the majority of their career either

Pretty sure Bird retired before you were born and Hakeem was either retired or at the last stages of his career in Toronto when you started watching basketball.
what the fuck are you talking about. I wasn't criticizing anyone, I was just saying why these lists are ridiculous and I know mine is just as ridiculous as I haven't watched most of their careers. That's waht I was going for, I also said these lists are very subjective and filled with heavy bias, mine as well, so calm the fuck down ......
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:58 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:55 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

1 jordan
2 kareem
3 magic
4 bird
5 russell
6 wilt
7 shaq
8 bryant
9 duncan
10 olajuwan
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:18 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

My top ten

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Chamberlain
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Kareem
6. Shaq
7. Karl Malone
8. Julius "Dr. J" Erving
9. Bill Russell
10. Kobe Bryant
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:35 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

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This post has some much fail I don't know where to start. Karl Malone in top 10 without one championship is a joke. 1st) Karl Malone was a postseason choker and came up small time and time again in postseason. He never really had good postseason in his entire career better than other top 10 GOAT players.
What a fucking horrible rebuttal. Either pick points of disagreement or GTFO. I was entirely open to putting Thomas ahead of Malone, but you were too busy reading no Kobe and having a bitchfit I bet.

Kobe isn't top 10. He's not above Shaq. Deal with it.
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:38 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: Top 10 NBA players of all time

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Originally Posted by Myst View Post

Ehh, I don't like how people completely discredit Kobe's first 3 titles. Obviously prime Shaq was alpha on those teams compared to a young up and coming Kobe but let's not act like Kobe was a role player. It's like saying Duncan and Shaq were carried to their last couple championships since Wade and Parker got the MVPs. It's absurd. I mean, Kobe put up some insane numbers himself. Yes, Shaq definitely deserved those Finals MVPs I'm not arguing that but it was just smarter to go through your dominant big when he's up against Eastern Conference teams with forgettable starting centers like Rik Smits and Todd Macculloch (yup).
Ok well if Kobe is top 10, how do you place him there when some have Shaq at like 9th or 10th? He's not above Shaq on the list. Despite comparisons, Kobe is not Jordan.

L
Quote:
ikability has nothing to do with being the best player to ever step on the court. If that truly was the case, Magic would be everyone's GOAT and not MJ. Jordan was a total douche bag and probably still is an over-competitive douche, much like Kobe. I mean, the man was known for getting into fights with his teammates! He even punched Steve Kerr iirc. The amount of ridicule he would get now for antics like that in this 24-hour media cycle is unimaginable.
I am entirely open to placing Thomas ahead of Malone, if people want to judge greatness on titles.

Quote:
Also, you penalize Kobe for 'riding' Shaq in his first 3 titles (he was still the 2nd best player on the court in those Finals) yet you're not penalizing LeBron for laying the biggest egg ever for a GOAT candidate in the 2011 Finals?
The two aren't comparable. Furthermore - when did I place Lebron in the top 10? Verdict is still out there, I simply aid he has the potential to make the list.

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Originally Posted by BruiserKC View Post
My top ten

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Chamberlain
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Kareem
6. Shaq
7. Karl Malone
8. Julius "Dr. J" Erving
9. Bill Russell
10. Kobe Bryant
Bill Russell below Karl Malone and no Larry Bird?

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