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Old 05-06-2013, 01:22 PM   #8321 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wembley - Bayern vs Dortmund - Will they find a way for both of them to choke?

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Originally Posted by THE DARK ANDRE View Post
What situations would prevent 400,000 people from attending a regular home game in Germany (where 80,000 tickets are available) that wouldn't be apparent at a cup final in England (30-40,000 tickets are available to Dortmund fans)? Other than those fans being English I can't think of a legitimate reason. So unless England has 100,000 or so genuine Dortmund fans then it seems a bit of a weak reason.

The fans who turn up for the big day but nothing else could fall under the categories of a fair weather fan or a band wagoner to be honest. Regardless of terminology, both are undesirable tags in my opinion.

I agree that it's a disgrace that the loyal Dortmund fans could miss out on a ticket. When we (ncfc) have limited tickets available the club sets up a ballot where the ticket sales are staggered, season tickets, then super members, then members, then general sale. Fair as it's ever going to be.
Avalibility (job being the majority one) and cash would be the two that prevent people from watching their club every week. Throw in the legit Dortmund fans in Britain, then the ones who are just looking for a ticket to watch the game. I can't imagine those can combined can amount upwards of 400'000 fans however. So there is a point of a decent amount just there for their special day, then in a few years, they'll barely remember who the first team was. The lack of avalibility is the biggest key point though, they'll most likely try to book a day off work to watch.

Definately, when you watch a cup final in Scotland, you'll see crowds in the tens of thousands. 3-4 days later for their league match, back down to the usual number. Frustrating experience to see, but nothing one can do about it. Also happens in the league playoffs in England, and it happened at that FA Trophy a few weeks ago, from memory.

I would like to hope it's what Dortmund are going for. They are a fan ran club first, they won't (hopefully) turn away their regulars just for a couple thousand who'll pay upwards of £500 more.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:34 PM   #8322 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wembley - Bayern vs Dortmund - Will they find a way for both of them to choke?

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Originally Posted by Edgehead 26 View Post
Anyone know what the odds on Dortmund were at the start of the competition? I've been saying since the start that I thought it'd be between Dortmund/Juventus

I don't know for sure, but at a guess I'd say they were roughly 25/1. Maybe even 30/1 given they were in a hard group.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:40 PM   #8323 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wembley - Bayern vs Dortmund - Will they find a way for both of them to choke?

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Originally Posted by Desecrated View Post
Avalibility (job being the majority one) and cash would be the two that prevent people from watching their club every week. Throw in the legit Dortmund fans in Britain, then the ones who are just looking for a ticket to watch the game. I can't imagine those can combined can amount upwards of 400'000 fans however. So there is a point of a decent amount just there for their special day, then in a few years, they'll barely remember who the first team was. The lack of avalibility is the biggest key point though, they'll most likely try to book a day off work to watch.

Definately, when you watch a cup final in Scotland, you'll see crowds in the tens of thousands. 3-4 days later for their league match, back down to the usual number. Frustrating experience to see, but nothing one can do about it. Also happens in the league playoffs in England, and it happened at that FA Trophy a few weeks ago, from memory.

I would like to hope it's what Dortmund are going for. They are a fan ran club first, they won't (hopefully) turn away their regulars just for a couple thousand who'll pay upwards of £500 more.
I find it hard to believe that the German Dortmund fans would struggle to find time for a regular home game in Germany but would have the time to go to England, at best that's a case of fair weather fans coming out of the woodwork. As for money, Bundesliga tickets are dirt cheap, a trip to England for a Champion's league final (travel/hotel/match ticket) would be really expensive. When you consider all of that it doesn't make sense that the club would suddenly be completely overwhelmed by ticket demands from genuine supporters. Maybe a few people fit your examples but I doubt it's really enough to catch the club by surprise.

The "decent amount just there for their special day" who will "barely remember who the first team was" in a few years sound like bandwagoners to me. I'm not saying that none of the extra 400,000 are genuine fans, but there must be a fair amount of cling-ons (no star trek) looking for a ticket amongst that lot, that's all I'm saying.

When we reached the division one/champs play off finals in 2001/2002 we took 30,000, despite only regularly receiving around 16,000-20,000 at Carra Rud at the time. Makes you wonder how people can muster up the desire to travel all the way from East Anglia to Wales but not to turn up regularly at home games. We often had spare seats during that season so you have to question where those other 10,000 "fans" were on a normal basis. Proper fair weather fans/band wagoners.

If Dortmund don't have a ballot system then it's a bit of a fuckern jewk to be honest.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:44 PM   #8324 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wembley - Bayern vs Dortmund - Will they find a way for both of them to choke?

Holy cow! There was a period of time in September (right before Matchday 1 I think), when Ladbrokes, PaddyPower and Sportingbet were offering 40/1 on Dortmund winning the CL. If you got on that you'll be a very happy man right now.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:46 PM   #8325 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wembley - Bayern vs Dortmund - Will they find a way for both of them to choke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE DARK ANDRE View Post
When we reached the division one/champs play off finals in 2001/2002 we took 30,000, despite only regularly receiving around 16,000-20,000 at Carra Rud at the time. Makes you wonder how people can muster up the desire to travel all the way from East Anglia to Wales but not to turn up regularly at home games. We often had spare seats during that season so you have to question where those other 10,000 "fans" were on a normal basis. Proper fair weather fans/band wagoners.

If Dortmund don't have a ballot system then it's a bit of a fuckern jewk to be honest.


Exactly right. The extra fans Bradford, Southend & Millwall took to Wembley this year was a joke. To take the tens of thousands they did compared to their average attendances is a joke. That's why I respected Wigan so much for just their loyal fans going, yet they got criticised for not taking more than their average following.
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:06 PM   #8326 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wembley - Bayern vs Dortmund - Will they find a way for both of them to choke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE DARK ANDRE View Post
I find it hard to believe that the German Dortmund fans would struggle to find time for a regular home game in Germany but would have the time to go to England, at best that's a case of fair weather fans coming out of the woodwork. As for money, Bundesliga tickets are dirt cheap, a trip to England for a Champion's league final (travel/hotel/match ticket) would be really expensive. When you consider all of that it doesn't make sense that the club would suddenly be completely overwhelmed by ticket demands from genuine supporters. Maybe a few people fit your examples but I doubt it's really enough to catch the club by surprise.

The "decent amount just there for their special day" who will "barely remember who the first team was" in a few years sound like bandwagoners to me. I'm not saying that none of the extra 400,000 are genuine fans, but there must be a fair amount of cling-ons (no star trek) looking for a ticket amongst that lot, that's all I'm saying.

When we reached the division one/champs play off finals in 2001/2002 we took 30,000, despite only regularly receiving around 16,000-20,000 at Carra Rud at the time. Makes you wonder how people can muster up the desire to travel all the way from East Anglia to Wales but not to turn up regularly at home games. We often had spare seats during that season so you have to question where those other 10,000 "fans" were on a normal basis. Proper fair weather fans/band wagoners.

If Dortmund don't have a ballot system then it's a bit of a fuckern jewk to be honest.
WHen it's put the way you put it, I definately see your point. The cash one shouldn't really be an issue. A lifetime of following the game in Britain has made me occasionally forget that tickets elsewhere aren't as ridiculous. So I'l concede you are right. There will be people to fit the criteria I've put down, but when I really think it through, nowhere near as much as 1/10th of that 500'000, and nowhere near as much to make my points valid.

It's sad in sports there will be people who just want to see their local club lift a trophy, and the club they allegedly support is a second thought to them for the other 364 days. There is the solution to it, but a majority of clubs don't really care about it enough to bother.
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:16 PM   #8327 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wembley - Bayern vs Dortmund - Will they find a way for both of them to choke?

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Originally Posted by Desecrated View Post
WHen it's put the way you put it, I definately see your point. The cash one shouldn't really be an issue. A lifetime of following the game in Britain has made me occasionally forget that tickets elsewhere aren't as ridiculous. So I'l concede you are right. There will be people to fit the criteria I've put down, but when I really think it through, nowhere near as much as 1/10th of that 500'000, and nowhere near as much to make my points valid.

It's sad in sports there will be people who just want to see their local club lift a trophy, and the club they allegedly support is a second thought to them for the other 364 days. There is the solution to it, but a majority of clubs don't really care about it enough to bother.
This was a nice warm up for TDL, although we won't be able to use rebuttals

Glory hunters are odd creatures. If you get so much satisfaction from seeing a sports team win a match then why wouldn't you want to see them on a regular basis? Sure, that team won't win every week, but there's a good chance that they won't win a one off final either.

It's funny really, because after that surprise play off final (scraped sixth place on the last day) we started to get sell outs due to the raised expectations. That followed through to our promotion in 04/05, yet all of the fans stuck with us when we went back down, even when we were relegated to league one in 2009. We have had a good loyal fan base over the last ten years. It's weird because we were only attracting around 13,000 per match during the "glory days" of the early 90's. The club proved themselves to be visionaries in the mid 90's when they started the kids for a quid campaign, the legacy of that investment is paying off now.
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:04 PM   #8328 (permalink)
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Tickets in Germany are very very cheap btw. Just pointing that out.
I liked this exchange between Andre and Desecrated. I'd just like to add that Dortmund stated something on their site about the tickets. I'd suggest to check that out.
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Old 05-06-2013, 04:11 PM   #8329 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wembley - Bayern vs Dortmund - Will they find a way for both of them to choke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE DARK ANDRE View Post
This was a nice warm up for TDL, although we won't be able to use rebuttals

Glory hunters are odd creatures. If you get so much satisfaction from seeing a sports team win a match then why wouldn't you want to see them on a regular basis? Sure, that team won't win every week, but there's a good chance that they won't win a one off final either.

It's funny really, because after that surprise play off final (scraped sixth place on the last day) we started to get sell outs due to the raised expectations. That followed through to our promotion in 04/05, yet all of the fans stuck with us when we went back down, even when we were relegated to league one in 2009. We have had a good loyal fan base over the last ten years. It's weird because we were only attracting around 13,000 per match during the "glory days" of the early 90's. The club proved themselves to be visionaries in the mid 90's when they started the kids for a quid campaign, the legacy of that investment is paying off now.
Lack of rebuttals was the only reason I signed.

I think odd is an understatement. Especially those who switch clubs. Those fans seriously can't feel the happy emotions of being a champion or winner with a new team every few years.

It is always great to see clubs keep their fans through the years, after some turbulance. I do wonder if Wolves will keep theirs, they were averaging a decent crowd for Premier League games weren't they? Can't really recall. Their fans are hardcore nutcases though of the highest degree, so I should imagine they do. I mean, Millwall have kept their psychopaths, when they could of gone to, examples, QPR or Chelsea. They are relatively near Millwall from memory.

One fanbase that has confusd me, they won't be tagged under the gloryhunters discussion rolling, but Wimbledon & FC United of Manchester. Their attendances have declined through the years. That has me very curious. I do wonder why considering how those clubs are run.
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Old 05-06-2013, 04:42 PM   #8330 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wembley - Bayern vs Dortmund - Will they find a way for both of them to choke?

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Originally Posted by Edgehead 26 View Post
Anyone know what the odds on Dortmund were at the start of the competition? I've been saying since the start that I thought it'd be between Dortmund/Juventus
quite a few "notable" people had them going far, Jurgen Klinsmann even in the group phase put Dortmund on the level of Bayern, Real Madrid and Barca (etc..)

They are a team who rise up when they are the underdogs it seems, funnily enough their worse games were against Malaga (Dortmund were considered favorites) and their home match against Ajax in the group phase
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