2012-2013 Discussion Thread for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, etc - Page 16 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:42 AM   #151 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2012-2013 Discussion Thread for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, etc

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Originally Posted by Seb View Post
Erm, no.

Winning a ton of jobber Scottish titles/cups doesn't make you the most successful team in football. The most successful teams in world football are Madrid and Milan.

Edit: I do agree that you are still the same club though, regardless of having dissolved and coming back as a new co, or whatever went down. You deserve your fate but given the amount of TV revenue the SPL teams will now lose, i'm a little surprised they didn't vote you back in.
I disagree. I know what your saying, that other teams can win less trophies but those trophies are of a 'higher standard', and harder to win. But I disagree.

Although it would be harder for Rangers to win La Liga and the Premier League, we are still the most successful team, even as Celtic are more successful than a lot of European teams.

Rangers beating Celtic is just as good a results as beating Real Madrid is for Barcelona.
Because Rangers and Celtic are a good match for either, not this season particularly for us, although our team is still quite good, after what happened. There is less money in Scottish football, therefore winning the SPL 54 times is just as good an achievement as Barcelona winning La Liga 20ish times, because the SPL is the level we're at, Barcelone have a 'higher standard' of players, as other European countries do, but that doesn't lessen the achievements of other teams, who are successful at a level that suits them.

I hope I explained that well. But that argument isn't fair.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:12 AM   #152 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2012-2013 Discussion Thread for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, etc

Your arguments make sense, but I still don't agree with them. It's like me trying to say that Latvian bloke who scores 40+ league goals every season is as successful as Messi/Ronaldo. Or Jordan Rhodes is as successful as van Persie. Relativity is important. But more importantly you're ignoring European achievements, which is the most important factor of all. Madrid and Milan who I mentioned have 16 European Cups between them. Barcelona have 4 European Cups and 4 Cup Winners Cups to go with their domestic success.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:36 AM   #153 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2012-2013 Discussion Thread for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, etc

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Originally Posted by Seb View Post
Your arguments make sense, but I still don't agree with them. It's like me trying to say that Latvian bloke who scores 40+ league goals every season is as successful as Messi/Ronaldo. Or Jordan Rhodes is as successful as van Persie. Relativity is important. But more importantly you're ignoring European achievements, which is the most important factor of all. Madrid and Milan who I mentioned have 16 European Cups between them. Barcelona have 4 European Cups and 4 Cup Winners Cups to go with their domestic success.
I'm not saying Rangers are a better team than Barcelona, it would be very hard to be with the way football is, there never really has been a level playing field, and although it used to be more level than it is now, Rangers and Celtic have always punched above their weight and still do, just not on as big a scale, and that's only because the financial disparity between countries and leagues is getting wider. Celtic won the European Cup, and got to the UEFA Cup final in the 2000's.
We won the cup winners cup, gwe got to the semi-final in the first year the European Cup became the Champions League, we lost to Marseille in the semis and it was later found out they match fixed, we accumulated a lot of debts in the 1990's and early 2000's to try and keep up with the way finances in other leagues was chaning, and it nearly worked, that season and it did work most years domestically. And we got the UEFA cup Final in in 2008, beating teams from all the 'major leagues' on the way to it.

Personal achievements like the Latvian striker thing, aren't the same, my argument isn't saying a Latvian striker paying in a part-time league scored 60 goals in all competitions so he is as good as Messi, that Latvian striker probably wouldn't score 60 goals a season if he moved to Barcelona, but that doesn't mean his achievements are rubbish beacause he wasn't playing in a league where, if you get relegated you will get a parachute payment higher than most teams in other countries would make in a year, a finishing in the top half of their league,

I get what you're saying and there are different ways of looking at it, but judging it, the team with the most trophies are the most successful, just as the guy with the most medals is meant to be 'the best of all time', and we have more trophies than any other football club in the world.
Even though we would find it difficult to play in the Premier League or La Liga, the SPL is a good standard for us just as La Liga is a challenge for Barcelona, so the achievements are just as good, and in this case better, because every team, athlete, etc. have their level.

And the fact that Rangers and Celtic can lure good players, and when we're in division 3 and been punished really badly, is amazing for the clubs, and the reputation they have although financially football becomes more unbalanced, and players sometimes have to take lower wages to play for us.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:45 AM   #154 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2012-2013 Discussion Thread for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, etc

I'm sorry but saying the SPL counts on a par with the big leagues in terms of achievements purely because Rangers/Celtic are far shitter than Spanish teams doesn't stack up. Even if it did, you're not the most successful club in the world if you've NEVER won the biggest club tournament, the European Cup.

We're just recycling the same arguments at this point.

Also, you can't lure good players. There hasn't been a great player in Scottish football since Henrik Larsson moved to a real league. For the past 5 years at least Celtic and Rangers have been made up of Championship calibre players, and the other clubs probably League Two calibre players.
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:07 AM   #155 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2012-2013 Discussion Thread for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, etc

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Originally Posted by Seb View Post
I'm sorry but saying the SPL counts on a par with the big leagues in terms of achievements purely because Rangers/Celtic are far shitter than Spanish teams doesn't stack up. Even if it did, you're not the most successful club in the world if you've NEVER won the biggest club tournament, the European Cup.

We're just recycling the same arguments at this point.

Also, you can't lure good players. There hasn't been a great player in Scottish football since Henrik Larsson moved to a real league. For the past 5 years at least Celtic and Rangers have been made up of Championship calibre players, and the other clubs probably League Two calibre players.
I'm not saying the SPL is as good as La Liga, I'm saying Celtic are to Rangers what Real Madrid are to Barcelona. Different levels, but each level weighs up with the quality of their league, like Hearts our to Rangers and Celtic what Valencia are to Barcelona and Real Madrid.

Yes we are, that part of the argument is kind of a fact, because at our domestic level, in Scotland, which is the only place we compete domestically we have won more trophies than any other club, one trophy doesn't equal over 100 trophies. It's as hard for us to win the SPL against Celtic as it is for Barcelona to win La Liga against Real Madrid, because that's the level we play it and the only level we can play it.

If you put us in the Premier League or La Liga and gave us 15 years, like the big teams in those leagues have had, we'd be at that level, Rangers and Celtic would be competing for the european trophies every year too, because we would have had that level of income for that amount of times, just as Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man Utd etc. have.

Some of it isn't really an argument.

And the players, I disagree, it depends how you think of great, but great or not, there have been a lot of good players between Rangers and Celtic in the last 10 years.

It's a lot harder for us to get great players than it is for clubs in the Premiership and La Liga, a team that gets promoted to the Premier League get paid 30m+, based on on field accomplishments, like how much you get for winning the SPL it would take ages for Rangers and Celtic to make the money purely from on field achievements, but the Old Firm are huge clubs, and although the money is no where near that in Scottish Football, we manage to make that money every year, because we have amazing support, just from ticket sales, we make that amount of money in a season.

Where Wigan get over 20m a year for TV money, the only way we can rely on making money like that is from ticket sales. We're still huge clubs, not many clubs make amounts like that from ticket sales, if we had the same finances as the big English clubs, we could attract the top players, if money was equal and similar wages could be offered.
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:19 AM   #156 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2012-2013 Discussion Thread for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, etc

I don't think we're even arguing the same point now. I accept that Rangers/Celtic have it a bit shitty, but that's life. When you're looking at the worlds most successful clubs, the first thing you look at is European Cups. Rangers have none. For whatever reasons, excuses, the fact remains, they have none. They're therefore nowhere being the WORLD's most successful club. Maybe if you say they're the "world's most successful domestic achievers relative to the quality of their league", it would make more sense.

The world's most successful clubs are Real Madrid, Milan, Barcelona, Munich, Liverpool/Man Utd. I would go with that order too when you factor in European Cups, League Titles and Domestic Cups.
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:24 AM   #157 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2012-2013 Discussion Thread for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, etc

We just won't agree then.

You judge being the most successful on winning a single cup to prove you have been a successful club.
I judge it on winning more trophies than anyone else.
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:28 AM   #158 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2012-2013 Discussion Thread for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, etc

No I judge it on a combination European Cups, League Titles, and Domestic (and Other) Cups, with the former holding the most weight given that it's all the worlds most successful clubs competing against each other.
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:31 AM   #159 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2012-2013 Discussion Thread for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, etc

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Originally Posted by AJ22 View Post
We just won't agree then.

You judge being the most successful on winning a single cup to prove you have been a successful club.
I judge it on winning more trophies than anyone else.
Well how many of those trophies have you won by sticking to the rules? Bearing in mind you have fielded 63 players who received payments which broke football rules and therefore should of been ineligible, and the in the event of a club fielding an ineligible player is usually a points deduction or being kicked out of a cup competition, so with all that in mind and the SFA do the right thing and start stripping you of the trophies which you cheated to win then all of a sudden the Old Rangers trophy count won't as impressive.
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Old 08-03-2012, 11:05 AM   #160 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2012-2013 Discussion Thread for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, etc

Rangers needs titles stripped off them ASAP. Punish them as much as possible.
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