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Old 06-18-2012, 11:39 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Muller better than Pele? I can only assume you've seen very little footage of Pele. When Pele first emerged, no one had ever seen a talent quite like him. I actually don't like him at all as a man, and I do agree that FIFA do trump him up a lot and perhaps make him seem better than he was (as his peak was actually earlier on in his career, and somewhat short lived after injury took away his blistering pace, ala fat Ronaldo), but there is no doubting his extraordinary talent.

Also worth noting that back in the 70s, the quality in European football wasn't that much better than in South America.

I suspect you think your being quite 'cool' in having that opinion and not believing in 'FIFA's agenda/conspiracy' but really your just being a massive idiot. You can ask any football expert worth their salt who have seen a lot of each of Muller and Pele, ask them who's better and there is only one answer. I rate Muller quite highly too, but come on. Pele was legitimately an amazing player, and the only forwards that can really hold up compared to him are Maradona, Di Stefano and potentially Messi.

Actually you're the massive idiot for being so obviously clueless about Muller's achievements. More goals than games for Germany when it's hard enough to average a goal per game for club let alone country. He scored 66 goals in 74 European cup matches posting the greatest ratio ever seen in the tournaments history. He only went to two world cups yet scored fourteen goals over the course of both events including victory in the 1974 final where naturally he scored the winning goal. Two years before that he won the European Championships with Germany where he earned another Golden Boot and scored two goals in the final.

But no, I'm just being cool, I have absolutely no evidence to back me up whatsoever.
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:45 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Cruyff > Pele

As far as Muller goes, from the footage i've seen and opinions i've heard he was the ultimate poacher. Pele may have been a better player, but Muller is probably the best goalscorer ever (and I know what I value more in a striker).

Well, until came along.

What's more incredible is that Pele and Muller were actually strikers, whereas Messi (like Cruyff, Maradona, and Di Stefano before him) is not, yet scores even more goals.
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:45 AM   #53 (permalink)
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If goals to game ratios are so important, then isn't action man one the greatest players of all time then?

I disagree greatly with Cryuff being better than Pele too. As for Cryuff not being a striker? I personally don't like the classification of striker as there's too much ambiguity to it. I prefer to use the term 'forward', and Cryuff certainly was at least a forward, in that he player on the furthest line, be it in a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3. He did drop back plenty and got involved in build-up play, and also in the Dutch Total football systems of the day, you could argue that no one attacking players really had set positions anyway. Also worth noting that Pele was very good in build-up play too, and got loads of assists as well as goals. He was a complete player.

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Old 06-18-2012, 11:50 AM   #54 (permalink)
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If goals to game ratios are so important, then isn't action man one the greatest players of all time then?
Action Man has already been to the same amount of world cups as Muller and scored something like ten less goals. Nice try though.

There's being a poacher and then there's scoring 68 goals in 62 games for your country. Different class.
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:51 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Is Just Fontaine one the greatest players ever too then? How about Ali Daei? 109 goals in 149 games.
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:51 AM   #56 (permalink)
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If goals to game ratios are so important, then isn't action man one the greatest players of all time then?
I don't think Ronaldo's roughly 230 goals in roughly 420 games compares with Gerd Muller's roughly 700 goals in roughly 750 games.

Cruyff wasn't a striker, just like Cristiano Ronaldo isn't a striker. They're both forwards (a term I also prefer), the former a centre-forward/attacking midfielder and the latter a right winger turned left winger. You can classify them all the same, but regardless it's the CAM/CF players like Di Stefano, Maradona and Cruyff who get more credit than players like Puskas, Muller and Van Basten. Even today i'm sure most people regard say, Ozil as a better player than Gomez.
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:55 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Is Just Fontaine one the greatest players ever too then?
No but those 13 goals he scored stands as one of the greatest accomplishments ever.

Muller won everything there was to win at club and international level and always scored bucket lots of goals in doing do. During a six year period he won like the world cup, the european championships, three European cups and four bundesligas and broke goalscoring records in 3 out of 4 of the competitions.

Ronaldo only compares to Muller as a goalscorer when it comes to domestic competition and I can't make any kind of argument between the depth of the Bundesliga back then and La Liga now. Action Man is already one of the greatest league competition players of all time but football isn't all about league competition.

Quote:
How about Ali Daei? 109 goals in 149 games.
I bet Davor Suker has got a better ratio than that. How does it possibly compare to 68 / 62?

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Old 06-18-2012, 12:11 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Earlier in his career, Daei was going close to a 1 in 1 scoring rate, but he slowed up a lot towards the end of his career.
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Old 06-18-2012, 12:19 PM   #59 (permalink)
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There is an element of that but people underestimate his skill imo. He just didn't have the tools to compete with Federer and was nearly always drawn to play him in Grand slams and he was also a really underrated clay courter who unfortunately encountered Nadal four times on the surface in what must have been a screwjob from the authorities who hated his attitude. The timing of his return against big servers was awesome and some of his lobs were breathtaking in their execution.
don't have to tell me about people underestimating Hewitt. Being Australian he carried 'australian tennis' for years and was constantly attacked by our media. He was always a far better player when he was yelling out cmon at the end of a winner etc. Which may sound dumb but for mine its all a big psychological advantage yelling out cmon and pumping yourself up. He got bagged so much that he's toned so far down he just doesn't have the same edge mentally.

I'd almost put him in a similar category to Murray in the sense that neither are bad players but the elite players will/did handle them.
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Old 06-18-2012, 12:20 PM   #60 (permalink)
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@Bananas - Yeah it's impressive, don't get me wrong but Muller scored eighteen goals in three international tournaments. The Iranian guy scored most of his goals against mediocre competition.


Bananas I do understand the point you're making about Pele. If we watched clips of them both hands down I'd say Pele looked better. But Muller was like the super saiyan version of Mario Gomez and was by a mile the best at what he did at the time in every type of match-up he played. His stats in big match situations beggar belief.
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