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**papermache16** · 05-18-2008, 12:31 AM

I think Kobe's one of the greatest, but Kobe needed Shaq to win his three rings. Leading the team by himself, they were perennial first round exiters. Now that Gasol is on the team, they are as good a chance to make it to the finals as ever.

Lebron carried an otherwise mediocre team on his shoulders to the NBA finals. Kobe has yet to do that without the presence of a Shaq and (probably) Gasol.

**LadyCroft** · 05-18-2008, 12:50 AM

Kobe needed Shaq to win those championships... So?

Name a championship team that has only one good player on it. Of course he needed Shaq. Jordan wouldn't have won all those championships without Pippen... does that make Jordan any less of a player? Of course not.

As far as Lebron goes, you can bring him up when he actually wins a championship without any good players around him. It's simply not going to happen though.

**papermache16** · 05-18-2008, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyCroft

Kobe needed Shaq to win those championships... So?

Name a championship team that has only one good player on it. Of course he needed Shaq. Jordan wouldn't have won all those championships without Pippen... does that make Jordan any less of a player? Of course not.

As far as Lebron goes, you can bring him up when he actually wins a championship without any good players around him. It's simply not going to happen though.

I just think Lebron gets a bad rap for not winning a championship, when in all probability if he had Shaq (of yesteryear) as a teammate I'm sure he'd have rings as well.

**DDMac** · 05-18-2008, 09:47 AM

When Lebron can consistently hit a jumper and play solid defense, we'll talk about putting him in the same category as Bryant.

phoenixnash · 05-18-2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiNgoFKiNgS23

Duncan and Lebron are both better players than Kobe IMO. He has won exactly 2 playoff series without Shaq.

Duncan cant win the title without any help, whether its Robinson, now Parker, who happens to be the Finals MVP last year and Ginobili as the 6th man this year. Lebron got decent defensive cast last year plus a crappy conference...but there is no way he will win a championship even with his cast now.

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His behavior wasn't exactly that great this year. He lead the league in teachnical fouls, called out Andrew Bynum, and demanded a trade this year.

Technicals doesnt mean cockiness, that's intensity. Whatever he said in the offseason was 100% TRUE. Which lead to Bynum's statement season and Lakers signing Gasol. He wants to win...Id rather have that than a Vince Carter who just doesnt care at all.

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I don't like Kobe. He is a complainer and a bitch. He ran Shaq out of town, and demanded a trade then didn't then demanded one again all in one day. He is a great player, and yes everyone talks smack, but he hasn't won anything without Shaq. He is the only guy I see saying something or shaking his head after almost every fkn shot he hits. Yesterday he hit a three and is shaking his head jawing with Ronnie Brewer. Thats why you see Kobe the subject of so many cheap shots.

Hater in the house!! LOL Look...Shaq has not won anything without a great partner..he had one in Kobe and lucky to have Wade in Miami. Shaq on his prime had Penny and got swept and schooled by Hakeem in the finals. Did you think if Shaq got traded to the Knicks instead of Miami that he would win there... Absoultely NOT!

You are one of the reason why Kobe does this things... to prove you wrong...people who live in the past and dont see beyond that. I didnt like Kobe when he started, but I care about basketball and he's the best out there...dont care about the other things that gets overblown by the media. So I guess you were crying when Kobe got all smiles and won the MVP. If Stephen A. Smith and Shaq both thinks he changed and deserved winning it, then so should you...BUT not gonna happen bec you will hate him no matter what he does anyway, INLCUDING WINNING A TITLE THIS YEAR.

**Rock Bottom** · 05-18-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyCroft

Name a championship team that has only one good player on it. Of course he needed Shaq. Jordan wouldn't have won all those championships without Pippen... does that make Jordan any less of a player? Of course not.

Arguable. Jordan takes a two year break after winning 3 consecutive championships, then comes back and does it again for another three years. Tells alot of people that this really may have been all MJ, even though his team mates did contribute, you take this guy out and look what happens. After all, did Pippen contribute in Jordan's game winning (even championship winning) shots?

If there was an exception to the "No player can do it alone" statement, it was the one and only, #23, Michael Jordan.

**LadyCroft** · 05-18-2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock Bottom

Arguable. Jordan takes a two year break after winning 3 consecutive championships, then comes back and does it again for another three years. Tells alot of people that this really may have been all MJ, even though his team mates did contribute, you take this guy out and look what happens. After all, did Pippen contribute in Jordan's game winning (even championship winning) shots?

If there was an exception to the "No player can do it alone" statement, it was the one and only, #23, Michael Jordan.

Again, he couldn't have done it without Pippen and NEVER did it without Pippen. And thusly, Pippen couldn't do it without MJ either. You ask if Pippen contributed to Jordan's game winning shots... Of course he did. The Bulls wouldn't have been close enough for Jordan to take a game winning shot without having Pippen. You do know that Pippen was voted as one of the best 50 players of all time right?

Quote:

If there was an exception to the "No player can do it alone" statement, it was the one and only, #23, Michael Jordan.

Where is the proof of this? He NEVER did it alone.

**Headliner** · 05-18-2008, 02:58 PM

I think some people have a hard time understanding the fact that Basketball is a team effort no matter how good one individual is on the team. It's how players play together that makes them so great. Jordan's the best ever because (besides his offensive and defensive accomplishments) he made everyone around him better in more than one way. To say that Jordan did it all by hisself isn't fair. Did he have majority influence? Sure. But last I remember there were 12 players on the team.

**DDMac** · 05-18-2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyCroft

Again, he couldn't have done it without Pippen and NEVER did it without Pippen. And thusly, Pippen couldn't do it without MJ either. You ask if Pippen contributed to Jordan's game winning shots... Of course he did. The Bulls wouldn't have been close enough for Jordan to take a game winning shot without having Pippen. You do know that Pippen was voted as one of the best 50 players of all time right?

The constant disrespect that Scottie gets is disgusting.

**JSL** · 05-18-2008, 05:11 PM

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Originally Posted by DDMac

The constant disrespect that Scottie gets is disgusting.

agreed. Scottie is a 7 time NBA All star, he should get nothing but respect. Did he need MJ's help to win a title? yes, but that didn't make him any less of a great player. Basketball is a TEAM GAME. Lakers won titles with Shaq and Kobe, Duncan needed Robinson, then got Parker and Manu. Scottie did his part for the Bulls, scored, rebounded, steals, etc.

Also

Quote:

Los Angeles Lakers center Andrew Bynum will undergo arthroscopic surgery on his left knee this Wednesday, it was announced by the team.

The procedure will entail a cleanup of some rough spots and fraying on the underside of his kneecap, and will be performed in New York by Dr. David Altchek.

A report on the surgery and an estimated timeline for Bynum's return will be provided on Wednesday.