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Old 03-07-2014, 06:02 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default F1 Hypothethical "3 hour" race?

'I was discussing a hypothetical race situation today and it went as follows:

At the Australian Grand Prix, due to the massive reliability issues, all of the cars except one - let's say it's Hamilton just to give it a name - run around at half speed.

Hamilton is doing 1:30 lap times, the next fastest runner, Rosberg, does 3 minute lap times.

Hamilton completes 57 laps in 90 minutes, laps everyone else 30 times - so he is on the final lap and they are all on lap 27. Hamilton then breaks down (or crashes into the wall) and is out of the race.

Rosberg - who is on lap 27 - continues to lap at 3 minutes a lap. Who wins the race?

Because 30 minutes later, on Rosberg's lap 37, the 2 hour time limit is reached. So at that point, Hamilton is still 20 laps ahead of Rosberg. However, because the 58th lap has been started, as I see it, that lap has to be completed. As I understand the regulations, the 2 hour time limit means that the race is finished on the first lap started once the 2 hour time limit has been reached (or full race distance) Hamilton triggered the final lap before the 2 hour time limit so that is the active lap. What I believe it technically means, is that the final lap would be recorded as taking 90 minutes, from the time Hamilton started it to the time Rosberg completed it.

Am I wrong on this? Or is there a provision in the regulations to deal with this (or a slightly less exaggerated version of it)'- Credit to AlienTurnedHuman
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Old 03-07-2014, 06:12 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: F1 Hypothethical "3 hour" race?

The way I see it is that the 2 hour limit applies to the race that has continued after Hamilton's crash, so his position in that race wouldn't count.

With the race longer than 3 laps but not yet at 75% distance (Roughly 65%) half of the final points would be awarded to Rosberg.
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Old 03-08-2014, 11:35 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: F1 Hypothethical "3 hour" race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curry View Post
The way I see it is that the 2 hour limit applies to the race that has continued after Hamilton's crash, so his position in that race wouldn't count.

With the race longer than 3 laps but not yet at 75% distance (Roughly 65%) half of the final points would be awarded to Rosberg.
Yes, but regulation say this:
Quote:
5.3 The distance of all races, from the start signal referred to in Article 38.9 to the chequered flag, shall be equal to the least number of complete laps which exceed a distance of 305 km (Monaco 260km). However, should two hours elapse before the scheduled race distance is completed, the leader will be shown the chequered flag when he crosses the control line (the Line) at the end of the lap during which the two hour period ended.

So in the situation, Hamilton - the race leader - starts lap 58 at 90 minutes. He then retires. The 2 hour time limit is reached, with Rosberg on lap 37 at that point. The chequered flag comes out when the LEADER next crosses the line. Rosberg can therefore cross the line multiple times without bringing out the chequered flag, so long as he is not the race leader. Which he proceeds to do for the next hour, until 3 hours into the race, when he has started his 58th lap, he passes Hamilton's retired car, becomes the race leader and then triggers the chequered flag when he next crosses the line.
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Old 03-08-2014, 11:54 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: F1 Hypothethical "3 hour" race?

No idea, my ruling (as ficticious Supreme F1 Leader) would simply be "did the dude get out of the car? then he is out of the race"
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Old 03-08-2014, 12:23 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: F1 Hypothethical "3 hour" race?

I think, as Hamilton didn't finish the race, he's out of it and he can't win it. He DNF.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:23 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: F1 Hypothethical "3 hour" race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomasThunder619 View Post
I think, as Hamilton didn't finish the race, he's out of it and he can't win it. He DNF.
Hamilton won't DNF

Quote:
5.2 Cars having covered less than 90% of the number of laps covered by the winner (rounded
down to the nearest whole number of laps), will not be classified.
From the sporting regulations.


What I get from that interpretation is that provided Hamilton has covered the 90% minimum, therefore he will be classified. As he is still a classified runner, all the cars would then have to unlap themselves to bring themselves onto Hamilton's lap, then take the lead off him. What I get from that is that it will be the same as if Hamilton had slowed to halt and allowed everyone to unlap themselves however many times it was, without crossing the line. The race would keep going until Hamilton, or the leader takes the flag.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:32 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: F1 Hypothethical "3 hour" race?

If Hamilton’s race ends in a DNF – which is what it would be if he failed to cross the finish line – he is no longer the leader and his position would be scrapped (meaning he cannot be declared the winner by virtue of completing the most laps but NOT the original race distance), making Rosberg the new leader and it would be him on the lead lap at the close of the time limited race.

Which would make this the correct answer, no?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Curry View Post
The way I see it is that the 2 hour limit applies to the race that has continued after Hamilton's crash, so his position in that race wouldn't count.

With the race longer than 3 laps but not yet at 75% distance (Roughly 65%) half of the final points would be awarded to Rosberg.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:45 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: F1 Hypothethical "3 hour" race?

The way I understand it is that Rosberg would be the winner
The race doesn't end until the leader either completes the lap count, or the chequered flag comes out to signal the end of the race after the 2 hour period has elapsed. Since neither of those scenarios could happen, I THINK it would come down to the next person to take over the lead, ie unlap themselves

I guess what you're saying there is that "Hamilton" is still technically the race leader until "Rosberg" has completed the same number of laps.

Take a less extreme, and more realistic example of the same idea then.

Most of the field retire before 90% race distance, Hamilton is leading 5 laps ahead of Kobayashi the second place car. He starts the final lap at 1 hour 59 minutes, and then retires half way around. It will take Kobayashi a further 12 minutes catch up to Hamilton's lap and complete it, making a race time of 2 hours and 12 minutes. Who wins?

There seems to be some confusion about what the 2 hour limit means.

Firstly - race directors can't arbitrarily decide to extend the race distance because "there's just a couple of laps left" - they have to follow the rules and if there are two laps left or 20 laps left when the two hour rule comes into effect that decides the race end. If a race director did somehow decide to add 5 minutes on to the race against the rules then it would lead to protests which would be upheld.

However - equally - the 2 hour time limit does not mean that racing ends the second 2 hours is reached. It finishes at the end of that lap. That's why races affected by the two hour limit are a little bit longer than 2 hours , because the leader had to complete the lap to trigger the chequered flag. Not because someone decided to "give them a bit more time just to finish it off because they've nearly finished"

Formula 1 is an exact sport with exact regulations, not a school sports day.

Another misconception about the 2 hour rule is that it is a race time regulation. It is NOT a race time regulation. It is a race distance regulation, it is a regulation for shortening the race distance from "the minimum number of laps to do a distance exceeding 305km" to "the minimum number of laps done by the leader after 2 hours has elapsed"

What I am discussing, in a hypothetical situation, is if the race leader is a few laps up on the second place driver, starts a lap before the 2 hour limit, then retires on that lap, the 2 hour limit is reached with the second place driver several laps down. In the situation described with Hamilton and Kobayashi five laps down, Kobayashi is not the race leader (and in no way can be considered the race leader if he was to end up being classified second) - so I believe he is allowed to keep circulating as many times as he wants after the 2 hour mark providing that Hamilton doesn't cross the line and he (or someone else) doesn't become the race leader and then cross the line.

Cars only finish the race laps down in two situations: retirement or passing the chequered flag. As the chequered flag has not been brought out that means they can continue to unlap themselves - unless someone can point to something in the regulations that states otherwise.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:52 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: F1 Hypothethical "3 hour" race?

Hamilton isn’t in the race anymore, hence no one has to lap him after the fact. His laps completed or not completed should no longer matter and play no role in determining the lead lap. It should be as if he’d never been there.

At the time of his DNF, the race was still to complete the full distance and he failed to do so. The new race leader post-DNF finishes under different requirements triggered by the time limit and does so, therefore is the winner even though he has driven fewer kms.
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Old 03-09-2014, 05:46 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: F1 Hypothethical "3 hour" race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Bad Wolf View Post
Hamilton won't DNF

Quote:
5.2 Cars having covered less than 90% of the number of laps covered by the winner (rounded
down to the nearest whole number of laps), will not be classified.
From the sporting regulations.


What I get from that interpretation is that provided Hamilton has covered the 90% minimum, therefore he will be classified. As he is still a classified runner, all the cars would then have to unlap themselves to bring themselves onto Hamilton's lap, then take the lead off him. What I get from that is that it will be the same as if Hamilton had slowed to halt and allowed everyone to unlap themselves however many times it was, without crossing the line. The race would keep going until Hamilton, or the leader takes the flag.
I still don't see how Hamilton could have won the race without finishing it.
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