Originally Posted by Tyrion Lannister
And they did, when he was ready (I say ready in the backstage, personal life context, obviously not in the wrestling context). Pushing a guy when he's 24 is stupid anyway, most of the time, because they usually aren't mature enough and let the success go to their head, like he did.
I can understand that, though. And you make a good point about the age thing since they still haven't given anyone as much as a title shot at the age of 24 since then, none I can think of anyways.
He couldn't handle it. Both from a life standpoint and from a personal standpoint, it's not WWE's fault. I guarantee you Vince has been kicking himself for 8 years that he couldn't make Orton his #1 guy and it KILLS him that it's John Cena, I guarantee it.
Admittedly, yes. But it's also WWE's fault for hot-shotting him to the main event when he was being slowly built with the Intercontinental title reign similar to Cena over on Smackdown. As for the #1 guy thing, I think you're exaggerating. Cena is the kind of guy Vince dreams of. Muscular, loyal and talented enough to not look out of place at the top. Plus Orton is a natural born heel, so I don't know how good it would have worked to make him a pandering goody two shoes anyways.
Yeah, they see an incessent 10 years of pushing, that's what they see. Like I said, he's like Michaels or Bret Hart, people will react to them if they're already there, they won't specifically come to see him, he can't DRAW anyone into the building, he can only elicit cheers from the diehards that would go to the shows whether he ever existed or not, that's not special. And honest to god, his pops aren't even that big anymore, so I don't know what you're talking about. He's not John Cena or Ryback level over, not even CLOSE, not now.
10 years? He was officially a permanent main eventer in 2007 which is when he was truly ready for the position and that's 5 years into his career. And yeah, he's not the
draw like a Cena or The Rock are, but he's had his peak in the past and as said before, the opportunity to make him a top guy was destroyed instantly and again, he's a natural heel so he would never work too well as the crowd pleasing #1 guy. And contrary to your belief that he's never made a difference to Vince's bank account, he was the #1 merch seller back in early 2009 which according to you, is a better indicator of a draw than ratings.
As for his pops, I haven't been watching in months but still checked out a few Orton segments/matches and from what I've seen, he's still got the crowd reaction on lock like ever before, it just happens that crowds are very silent a lot of the time so even Cena's reactions have dropped to an extent despite being the most over guy.
Being able to get people to "notice you" is easy, so I wouldn't assign such a definition to charisma. I don't see how anybody can think Del Rio doesn't have charisma based on a crowd reaction is beyond me, his mannerisms, actions, etc are top of the line and he speaks in such a way that it's obvious he's charismatic, but it's not that funny ha ha charisma that people like Rock have. Whatever, though. Del Rio got everything handed to him, I won't deny that, but I WOULD'VE handed everything too him because look at him, he's got the look, he can wrestle his ass off, he can talk (I don't care if people deny it, and you will, vehemently I'm sure, I haven't the time to argue. He CAN talk), he plays the assigned gimmick to him perfectly, and WWE doesn't utilize the gimmick well, they don't do anything with him but he still plays that part exceptionally. He's got everything you should want in a main eventer except the crowd reaction, but to be honest, the crowd doesn't matter in 2012 unless you're the face of the company, because at this point, it's PURELY the brand itself that draws, not the individual unless, like I said you're Cena. Del Rio, Orton, Punk, etc, it doesn't matter, they're all gonna do the same job, just in a less talented or more talented manner, depending on which one you are.
Furthermore, Del Rio's gimmick, as I mentioned, has been COMPLETELY mishandled and despite getting handed a lot, he never wins any big time matches like Orton, so who gives a shit? He choked at WrestleMania, he choked at Extreme Rules in his first 2 title shots, he rarely ever wins on PPV. His push has flopped back and forth so many times that I'm hardly surprised he's not over to the level he should be. They never mishandled Orton once he got on the ground, it was full on, he's the top heel, the end. Of course you get different results.
I disagree on the first sentence. You can get pushed non-stop but if you don't have "it", the reaction will remain to be silent. Just take Albert/Tensai for an example. He went over Cena and Punk and constantly squashed jobbers but he didn't get over which proves that it's not as simple as going over everybody. At best, being booked dominantly and going over respected wrestlers can result in "go away heat".
And I give it to Del Rio. He's got everything a main eventer has got and despite what I've said in the past, he does
have charisma. Hell, when I look at him and his facial expressions and arrogance, it makes me think of Legend Killer Orton so that's saying something. But I was killing the idea that getting shoved down throats automatically gets you over with an audience.
I don't even care enough to dissect the promos, I've been at this too long, but I know those promos and I'm still not gonna change my opinion. The guy just can't carry a promo, if you compare him to anybody who's respected on the mic you'll see why.
So you're running away from properly responding to this one? Fine by me.
But he wasn't. He was over for two weeks or so because evolution has just turned on him making the hot face and the fact that he was against heel HHH. Bryan Alvarez of f4w talked about it recently in the radio show. People weren't truly behind him, he was just cheered like any over mid carder was cheered.
What matters is that he was over. This "they weren't truly behind him" thing is just an excuse and doesn't even make sense. If he's over, he's over. End of story. And to further solidify it, he got cheered when beating Benoit at SummerSlam, he got cheered against Edge at Vengeance and he started getting small face reactions after his match with Foley.