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post #21 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 06:05 AM
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Re: Debunking the myth that CM Punk has been "held back"

Then look at Cena when he debuted and then we will see that Cena recieved a bigger push then Punk ever did and they continued to push him and maintain that momentum whilst building Punk in pointless WHC feuds then leading into his recent WWE title run which has been the only meaningful run he has had (main evented twice so I use that loosely). Punk will forever be #2 to Cena no statistics will ever deny that.

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post #22 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 06:17 AM
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Re: Debunking the myth that CM Punk has been "held back"

I think people need to understand becoming a star/world champion, getting that push has to be earned not handed to everyone. Sure there are guys company favors like Brock or Sheamus and pushes them to moon, yes they didnt deserve or earn it but this does not imply the rest were "held back".

Punk was given plenty of opportunities to make himself a star and a draw and he has succeeded somewhat. Sheamus is getting pushed like no other on the roster, but he is only a mid card champion unlike Punk. SD title and the brand itself has been de-valued considerably in recent years, people dont care about the person holding the SD title. In a way Sheamus needs that strong booking. Punk on the other hand is the WWE champion which is the company's top prize and still holds all the prestige, it is treated as an important main event title. Becoming the WWE champion and holding it for 330 days is in no way being "held back".


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post #23 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 06:26 AM
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Re: Debunking the myth that CM Punk has been "held back"

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Originally Posted by Tnmore View Post




Fail son. It was a babyface push and he got the most mic time of all.



Once hardy left him, his heel run bombed, he got very little heat. It was still a push he never deserved.




Stable leader every year, often the biggest heel in the company. Sounds like a push to me.



Cena draws. Punk cant.


1)Complete BS, he hardly got any mic time in his first couple of years in the company.

2)His heel run bombed in the month after the Hardy fued? blatant lie, he was still getting heat when fueding with Taker and they took the belt off him too soon.

3)The SES was getting tons of heat and they had Big Show destroy them all quickly, totally pointless.

4)Yes Cena is the biggest draw in the company, so what? Punk draws more then most, the brand as a whole is not drawing great numbers, not his fault.
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post #24 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 06:28 AM
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Re: Debunking the myth that CM Punk has been "held back"

it does really say something...Cena bigger than the title. the term of Held back is all about how you use their potential and WWE still haven't. WWE killed SES and Cm Punk momentum coming out of Pipebomb, they put it to stop for Cena. from Pipebomb that create huge buzz and momentum and on Survive series CM Punk face Alberto Del Rio while on Main Event The Rock and John Cena face Awesome Truth which is lowest Buyrates.

Cm Punk pipebomb should have been something have potential to bring old fans back...what happen to Cena time off?

Cm Punk have been giving meaningless long title reign...Bryan vs Punk could have been something better but they have to put Aj in their fued. Cm PUnk and AJ? really? i could have built their fued something like this 2 guys have history together from indy.



Punk have giving long reign and protected but first priority is still Cena that's where they concentrated on...Punk potential fued could blow everything out of water.

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post #25 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 06:46 AM
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Re: Debunking the myth that CM Punk has been "held back"

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Originally Posted by Hawksea View Post
LOL. "Held back" is just the word Punk's cult followers were throwing around to cover his main eventing failures.
In modern day WWE,nobody is a mega-draw.Cena,maybe the exception.The problem is Cena is simply much bigger than everyone else.Punk is the number 2 guy now.Punk's greatest achievement has been that he has surpassed Randy Orton and he has been involved with Rock,HHH,Vince,Nash in the past one year.Cena is in a different league and it's unfair to compare him to Punk or anyone in roster now.
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post #26 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 06:52 AM
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Re: Debunking the myth that CM Punk has been "held back"

Time span shouldnt be the focal point. Jhn Cena is already a 6 time wwe champion. It doesnt matter how long he helds the title but how many times he gets it back.
Trish is a 7 or 8 times womens champion and people believe she is the best just because of that.



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post #27 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 06:53 AM
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Re: Debunking the myth that CM Punk has been "held back"

good for few but those numbers dont say anything
when he did his shoot he talked about how he ad to job over and over again even after winning so many titles and not utilizing him in the right way
screwing the SES
and making him job a whole year on EVERY PPV
and by the time wm came and they didnt know what to do with orton they just gave him punk to beat him 3 times in a row so yeah
it doesnt matter if he was a 20 time world champ if he is just being treated as a mid card job and thats what he was saying

oh and look at the statistic and now look at the ppvs the past year.. who headlined them? who was always the focal point of the show

yeah we can talk about drawing and shit but if you dont try to make someone a star he wont draw just on his own... how long and how many good feuds did it take cena to become who he is now


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post #28 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 07:06 AM
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Re: Debunking the myth that CM Punk has been "held back"

Having someone hold the WWE title and not allowing them to Main Event PPV's is horrible booking and just plain insulting. Cena vs Laurinaitis at Over the Limit, Cena vs Big Show at No way out then the raw Money In the bank match featuring Cena were all main events and non of them needed to be. When it's Cena vs The Rock or Cena vs Lesnar then fair enough but not just Cena vs anyone. It made Punk look worthless and killed his babyface character.

If WWE don't feel that Punk is good enough to be in the main event fine but don't give him the most coveted title in the industry and tell him he's a big star. The WWE is all about lip service these days.
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post #29 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 07:12 AM
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Re: Debunking the myth that CM Punk has been "held back"

have you look at DVD/Blueray covers?
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post #30 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 07:14 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Debunking the myth that CM Punk has been "held back"

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Originally Posted by Tyrion Lannister View Post
How about that ridiculous 13 month jobbing streak on PPV? The guy went a year without winning a PPV match. ANY PPV match. One YEAR. Or most of his tenure on ECW?
He won the ECW title and held it for nearly half a year. If you're talking about his first bit with ECW. . .aka the immediate start of his pro wrestling career, wtf did you expect? Him to be handed titles left and right in his first few months?



Quote:
How was ECW NOT part of WWE? This isn't NXT, ECW stars interacted with Raw and SmackDown talent, they were an actual brand, ECW stars competed in the Royal Rumble, got PPV spots, etc.
FCW is part of the WWE too. So is NXT. ECW characters weren't vying for the WWE title, WHC title, or even the IC title. They never won those belts. Just the ECW belts. So despite occaisionally mingling with guys from Raw and Smackdown, they were not legitimate parts of the main show. Just like NXT guys and FCW guys aren't, despite occaisionally getting called up. ECW was basically AAA minor leagues.


Quote:
That is a blatant lie. Again, ECW WAS a WWE brand, that was recognized as part of the roster, it was not NXT. I repeat, NOT NXT. Why you continue to perpetrate this myth for the sake of acting like Punk was pushed more than he was is beyond me. And the ONLY reason he won MITB was because Jeff Hardy, the intended winner got suspended for drug use and they said "well, let's just make the guy who doesn't do drugs champion, he won't fuck us over".
Again, so is FCW and NXT.

But as I stated in my original post, even if you include that time, Punk for the ECW world title and held it for nearly half a year. Immediately after getting drafted to the WWE roster, eh won the WHC right away. He went on to win it 2 more times, and the WWE title two more times, and in the past 5 years held EACH of the WWE world titles longer than John Cena did.


Quote:
Again, those statistics are outright lies.
If you looked them up rather than go by "what you can recall", you'd know that those numbers are correct. Started from when CM Punk was drafted from ECW to the main WWE roster, those stats are 100% correct.


Quote:
They also don't sound accurate.
That's because you're too lazy to look them up since you're so sure you're right. Look on WWE.com and look up the title history yourself. You will see I am correct.


Quote:
Aaaaaaaaand your argument just went up in smoke. Not every god damn way of determining who's been pushed the hardest has to do with who's been champion for the longest time.
And yet it's a big part of it. You only wish my argument went up in smoke, because thus far you've posted zero facts to counter my facts.

That's because there aren't any facts to refute reality. CM Punk has had both the WWE title and the WHC title for longer than John Cena over the last 5 years. You cannot refute this because it's true. The gap in time he's had either of those two titles over Cena is also massive.


Quote:
Punk got weak competition and was defending the title in the middle of the show, Cena got strong competition and was in the main event 100% of the time unless an extremely special circumstance happened like a Streak match.
Rationalization and straw grasping. CM Punk was still the WWE champion for a very long period of time. You're simply complaining that WWE was not putting Punk's face on their posters and putting his match last.

They weren't doing that because he wasn't drawing as much as Cena. It has nothing to do with holding CM Punk back. CM Punk was afforded every opportunity to get over. He received: Lots of mic time, was constantly in a fued of some kind, held a title for nearly half of his career since being drafted to WWE roster, has gone over John Cena cleanly multiple times, has been allowed to break kayfabe and PG repeatedly, and last but not least, has been heavily pushed as WWE champion for 75% of the last 16 months (100% of the last 11).

Speaking of PPV records, CM Punk hasn't lost a match in PPVs in a year. If you wondered, John Cena's record in PPVs is is 6-6-2 since Summer of Punk started last year.


Quote:
Again, lies and misinformation. ECW counts.
Again, obviously not lies or misinformation. I pointed out early in my post that I was talking about from Punk's time on the WWE roster, not from his time on the ECW roster.

You can talk about his time in ECW too, but to sit here and claim what I said was a lie is bullshit and you know it. Again, you have nothing to say but to pretend I'm "lying" when nothing I said was a lie.


Quote:
If you want to see how he was held back, watch his DVD. They lay that shit out VERY clearly. They never even planned to debut him on tv, they were going to fire him in developmental for no reason and he just got lucky because Heyman demanded he be brought up for ECW.
I don't need to watch his dvd. I have watched the last 7 years of WWE to know that he has been heavily pushed.

I can also read, and comprehend the numbers that CM Punk has been WWE and WHC champion longer than John Cena over the past 5 years.

I don't debate that CM Punk may have had trouble starting (most guys do), but people are still claiming he's being held back and that WWE isn't giving him enough chances. The guy has had nothing but pushes for 5+ years, and has had world titles for logner than John Cena over that span.



Your entire post is summed up with: "You didn't include ECW as part of his WWE career, so I'm going to pretend that all of your factually correct numbers, including dating the point at which you started tallying them are "lies" even though they aren't, because that's the only way I can pretend to have an argument".
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