Re: Raw Discussion Thread 10/8/12: Rise Above Nipples, Punk Punches Bitches
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Originally Posted by JIGLET
hahahaahahaa cm punk got his butt kick by old man :
also ryback!!! on:
CM PUNK got his butt kicked by Vince McMahon, his age doesn't matter because he's still badass. It's like getting beating up by Clint Eastwood in the wrestling world XP
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Re: Raw Discussion Thread 10/8/12: Rise Above Nipples, Punk Punches Bitches
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Originally Posted by The Lady Killer
Lots of heels do the begging off thing. HHH did even when he was a badass heel. You think Punk should be booked like HHH during his Evolution run (badass who sometimes looks like a bitch but it's OK because he has backup)?
In some way shape or form. I'd prefer to liken it to the Triple H of 2000. Hunter was an awesome heel during that time. His performance in the ring as a heel, his heel character, was great. Extremely entertaining and people loved hating him. Now Punk doesn't have that Hunter physique, so the booking can't be the same. But the ideas behind it are still the same. Punk is arrogant and cocky, like Hunter was. Both cut great heel promos. They both firmly believe that they're the best (Punk is the best in the world, Hunter is The Game). The differences are that a) Punk has no backup and b) Punk gets made to look like a bitch weekly and almost never comes out on top. Hunter had backup in the McMahon-Helmsley facton and came out looking strong most of the time, that's why people would pay for PPVs to see Foley or Rock or Taker try and kick the shit out of him. When Hunter would somehow escape with a victory, that made them hate him even more, building the anticipation towards his inevitable beating even more.
Having a well built heel in this design would be a God send right now. Punk currently cuts a great promo and then looks like a pussy by the end of the show, ruining any good his promo(s) did. Why would I care about a villain who every week is basically defeated? It cripples my interest when the antagonistic force is pretty much a joke.
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Re: Raw Discussion Thread 10/8/12: Rise Above Nipples, Punk Punches Bitches
I definitely see what you're saying, but it's obvious that there just aren't heels like that anymore. The only time I could see that happening is if Cena turned heel. You have giants like Henry, Show, Lesnar who rarely run for a fight, but that doesn't work with someone of Punk's size. Him running still draws heat, but I see the difference you're pointing out.
Vince obviously isn't a fan of main event stables, as we rarely see them anymore, so I don't think Punk will be hooking up with someone other than Heyman unless Brock comes back to aid Punk against Ryback/Cena/Vince/etc.
Re: Raw Discussion Thread 10/8/12: Rise Above Nipples, Punk Punches Bitches
I'd say that Punk hasn't been booked as very weak in important matches though. He's kicking out of a lot of AA's, and while he wasn't the moral victor of the draw that was clearly just to continue the feud into HIAC. While he was pinned by Team Hell No he was left alone against a tag team and he went on to beat both Ziggler and Sheamus on the following shows.
He's become a more cowardly heel, but he still delivers when it counts more often than not.
The biggest exception is everything in relation to Tinberg.
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Re: Raw Discussion Thread 10/8/12: Rise Above Nipples, Punk Punches Bitches
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lady Killer
I definitely see what you're saying, but it's obvious that there just aren't heels like that anymore. The only time I could see that happening is if Cena turned heel. You have giants like Henry, Show, Lesnar who rarely run for a fight, but that doesn't work with someone of Punk's size. Him running still draws heat, but I see the difference you're pointing out.
Vince obviously isn't a fan of main event stables, as we rarely see them anymore, so I don't think Punk will be hooking up with someone other than Heyman unless Brock comes back to aid Punk against Ryback/Cena/Vince/etc.
I don't get why he wouldn't be. He's used main event heel stables to great effect before...several of which were the backbone of some of the Fed's most profitable and stellar years.
Its just such an easy formula. A main event heel stable involves multiple heels, obviously. Against 1-2 babyfaces, they have a clear advantage, meaning there are some real odds to overcome. The greater the odds against the babyface, the more peoples' interest in seeing the wrestler overcome them. When they do, it seems like a real feat and 99% of the time its very satisfying when the conclusion is reached. As I said before, adversity=interest. Steve Austin had Vince McMahon and the Corporation to overcome to get the WWF title in 1998/1999. Steve Austin also had Undertaker and the Ministry/Corporate Ministry to overcome in 1999. Rock had Hunter and the McMahon-Helmsley faction to overcome in 2000. Sting had Ric Flair and the Four Horsemen to overcome in 1990/1991. Sting had Hulk Hogan and the entire nWo to overcome in 1997. Goldberg had Hulk Hogan and the entire nWo to overcome in 1998. Hulk Hogan had Kevin Sullivan and the Dungeon of Doom to overcome in 1994/1995. Many of these are considered some of the best storylines ever (not so much Hogan vs the Dungeon). I think Punk would greatly benefit from being the leader of a main event heel stable.
I know it won't happen, but I can dream, can't I?
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Originally Posted by Evil Peter
I'd say that Punk hasn't been booked as very weak in important matches though. He's kicking out of a lot of AA's, and while he wasn't the moral victor of the draw that was clearly just to continue the feud into HIAC. While he was pinned by Team Hell No he was left alone against a tag team and he went on to beat both Ziggler and Sheamus on the following shows.
He's become a more cowardly heel, but he still delivers when it counts more often than not.
The biggest exception is everything in relation to Tinberg.
Yeah but a villain that looks good once in a while doesn't work nearly as well as a villain who looks great a lot of the time. Its just common sense.
And unfortunately, while he did kick out of several AAs, the way he lost the match at NoC made him look like a chump. Cena pretty decisively beat him. Its not like Punk grabbed the tights or had Heyman hold Cena's leg, to show that Punk deliberately cheated and thus was still in the dominant position. Cena pinned him fair and square and Punk won because of a technicality he basically just stumbled across in defeat. I found that took a LOT of wind out of his sails because its like he fell flat on his face into victory. Its just not appealing having a villain who looks like a joke in that respect. I thought the way he won at Summerslam was WAY better, because he did it through pure heel tactics that made him look legit.
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Re: Raw Discussion Thread 10/8/12: Rise Above Nipples, Punk Punches Bitches
^ i thought punk/cena at night of champions was a dead even match. cena came out looking just a little bit stronger in the end even thought it ended in a draw cuz cena fucked up the the german with a bridge. the match didn't make punk look weak at all. it made him look like when he's at his best he can wrestle cena dead even, but can't win unless he does something extra like cheat which makes sense. #1 heel ever beat the #1 face fairly? ever in history of pro wrestling?
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Re: Raw Discussion Thread 10/8/12: Rise Above Nipples, Punk Punches Bitches
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Originally Posted by Jingoro
^ i thought punk/cena at night of champions was a dead even match. cena came out looking just a little bit stronger in the end even thought it ended in a draw cuz cena fucked up the the german with a bridge. the match didn't make punk look weak at all. it made him look like when he's at his best he can wrestle cena dead even, but can't win unless he does something extra like cheat which makes sense. #1 heel ever beat the #1 face fairly? ever in history of pro wrestling?
What about it was dead even? That John Cena beat himself? That Cena no sold a ton of Punk's offense and almost fell asleep in the crossface Punk had on him?
The match didn't make them look on the same level at all. Cena looked like the Incredible Hulk, getting out of the Anaconda Vice, and kicking out of the GTS something like 3 times, and Punk's head kick. Then, in the end, he accidentally had his shoulders on the mat while Punk was OUT. Cena beat Cena, Punk beat nobody. It just so happens it was labeled a draw and Punk got to keep the title after looking like a dope who absolutely couldn't beat Cena, and then retained his belt on a complete and utter fluke. It would be like a meteor shooting down and hitting Cena on the head, and Punk pinned him.
This match showed that the only one who can stop Cena is Cena, Punk is just a bump in the road. That is completely unequal.
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Bossy's Law-in any online wrestling discussion, inevitably someone will mention that Daniel Bryan is the best or better then someone/something else, even if Daniel Bryan has nothing to do with the discussion.
Re: Raw Discussion Thread 10/8/12: Rise Above Nipples, Punk Punches Bitches
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Originally Posted by KO Bossy
What about it was dead even? That John Cena beat himself? That Cena no sold a ton of Punk's offense and almost fell asleep in the crossface Punk had on him?
The match didn't make them look on the same level at all. Cena looked like the Incredible Hulk, getting out of the Anaconda Vice, and kicking out of the GTS something like 3 times, and Punk's head kick. Then, in the end, he accidentally had his shoulders on the mat while Punk was OUT. Cena beat Cena, Punk beat nobody. It just so happens it was labeled a draw and Punk got to keep the title after looking like a dope who absolutely couldn't beat Cena, and then retained his belt on a complete and utter fluke. It would be like a meteor shooting down and hitting Cena on the head, and Punk pinned him.
This match showed that the only one who can stop Cena is Cena, Punk is just a bump in the road. That is completely unequal.
your version of the match is really warped. it was pretty even the whole way until cena went superman at the very end to win, but he fucked up and it was a draw. it's obviously what they were going for and i think they succeeded. it was a really good match. your basically pointing out cena's bad points at not having much nuance for playing different degrees of worn down/hurt. he's either dead or superpowered just like hulk hogan. yes, he sucks at it, but it was still an even match and he'll always come out looking strongest in the end even when he loses cuz he's the #1 face.
Re: Raw Discussion Thread 10/8/12: Rise Above Nipples, Punk Punches Bitches
i thought it was the best raw i've seen in a long time. punk was awesome on the mic being a dick. he just looked like such an asshole when vince challenged him to a match. i was really surprised when he slapped the shit out of vince too. i never expected that. jbl made me laugh a couple times, especially when he was saying jr is a swine quoting cesaro, and kane calling larry king skeletor was awesome. the punk/vince match at the end was the most entertaining thing i've seen on raw in forever. that shit was pure heaven for me. the low blow punk hit vince with was the fucking low blow of all low blows. his arm was so up there i wonder if vince had a cup on. the tease with who will he face in hell in the cell is fantastic. if every raw would be as good as this one i'd never take a break from wrestling ever again. divas match was crap and cena's promo in the start was typical cena garbage with bad cringe worthy impressions/jokes. otherwise, i mostly loved it. cody helping start sandows cartwheel was so gay as hell, lol. crowd was really good too especially when bryan came out they were going nuts with the YES chants. seriously, if you didn't think that was a good RAW, then why do you even bother watching at all? it's pretty much as good as it gets in this current era.
Raw 10/8/12 Discussion: Rise Above Nipples, Punk Slaps Bitches
Re: Raw Discussion Thread 10/8/12: Rise Above Nipples, Punk Punches Bitches
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