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Old 12-05-2012, 09:54 PM   #8431 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by N-destroy View Post

About Nash/Punk discussion, You people are arguing back and forth about athletic ability which is pointless. It's about storytelling in the ring. You don't have to jump around from turnbuckles to put on a memorable match. Punk is better because he understands in-ring psychology unlike Nash. Nash definitely has him beat when it comes to charisma, Look and presence though.
hey not saying I hate nash, of everything he did I admit he had a great presence, look and was a pretty good promo talker, but saying he was better than punk ON EVERYTHING, screams complete bias, idiocy and looking being a moron, at least people should be objective and say it like it is, Nash sucked on the ring and even in his best days Punk surpass him by light years ahead

but oh no, "Nash is better simply because I hate punk"
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:46 PM   #8432 (permalink)
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:51 PM   #8433 (permalink)
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A fleeting thought I should probably develop further before posting it: I wonder how much the viewers' disconnect is related to the disconnect between the champion and the rest of the roster? I feel like we've got maybe the most humanised WWE champion in a long, long time - a fairly regular-lookin' guy, for a WWE champ, with a grounded character akin to your Stone Colds and so forth, but nowhere near as mythologised a figure as the stars of the past. A product of a star-making promo that was supposed to kickstart a "reality era", a reign that was supposed to bring about sweeping changes that brought the outdated, stale WWE more in line with Punk's vision of a modern wrestling company.

And then, you put him in a program with The Terminator.

Or in a "hilarious" love triangle with a crazy skipping chick and a goat-faced maniac.

Or on a goofy "quest for respect" that insults the intelligence of everyone watching. "Just because you're the champion doesn't mean you're entitled to respect. Also, tune in to Night of Champions this Sunday." ACTUAL MICHAEL COLE QUOTE

And he's on a roster full of either weird, outsized caricatures like Cena and Sheamus, or underdeveloped blanks that could be something much more, like Barrett and Del Rio.

How much of WWE's problem is that there's too much really, really great TV available right now for it to be so confused about its own tone? Maybe they need to just decide that either we're going with cartoon characters like Ryback (who's getting over with the fans in a huge way right now) or more relatable characters like Punk (who gave the industry its most exciting moment in years) and stick with it, because putting the two types in a program together just seems to suck the air out of everyone's sails, including the audience. Maybe Punk's a really great NWA champ stuck in a Hulk Hogan world?

(Actually, running with that thought, is there so much great TV right now that, even if WWE was a really well-written, focused, cohesive wrestling show, a well-written wrestling show isn't good enough to get the very far above 4 million viewers anymore outside of nostalgia pops and such?)
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:00 PM   #8434 (permalink)
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Diesel Man Punk
I freaking love that avatar of yours.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:04 PM   #8435 (permalink)
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LOL, Nash was never good even for his character's niche of the lumbering giant. He doesn't hold a candle to Taker, Kane, Big Show, etc.

And the real clincher, that should settle any discussion about it is that...

Nash even frickin' admits this himself!

He often rips on his own style and workrate. Hell, just recently I watched a vid he did for Kayfabe Commentaries and someone asked a question about him wrestling the Big Show again and he responded (paraphrasing): "Why the hell would you want to see that? So we can put you to sleep? I only have four moves and I can't do any of them to him!"
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:14 PM   #8436 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Hands View Post
A fleeting thought I should probably develop further before posting it: I wonder how much the viewers' disconnect is related to the disconnect between the champion and the rest of the roster? I feel like we've got maybe the most humanised WWE champion in a long, long time - a fairly regular-lookin' guy, for a WWE champ, with a grounded character akin to your Stone Colds and so forth, but nowhere near as mythologised a figure as the stars of the past. A product of a star-making promo that was supposed to kickstart a "reality era", a reign that was supposed to bring about sweeping changes that brought the outdated, stale WWE more in line with Punk's vision of a modern wrestling company.

And then, you put him in a program with The Terminator.

Or in a "hilarious" love triangle with a crazy skipping chick and a goat-faced maniac.

Or on a goofy "quest for respect" that insults the intelligence of everyone watching. "Just because you're the champion doesn't mean you're entitled to respect. Also, tune in to Night of Champions this Sunday." ACTUAL MICHAEL COLE QUOTE

And he's on a roster full of either weird, outsized caricatures like Cena and Sheamus, or underdeveloped blanks that could be something much more, like Barrett and Del Rio.

How much of WWE's problem is that there's too much really, really great TV available right now for it to be so confused about its own tone? Maybe they need to just decide that either we're going with cartoon characters like Ryback (who's getting over with the fans in a huge way right now) or more relatable characters like Punk (who gave the industry its most exciting moment in years) and stick with it, because putting the two types in a program together just seems to suck the air out of everyone's sails, including the audience. Maybe Punk's a really great NWA champ stuck in a Hulk Hogan world?

(Actually, running with that thought, is there so much great TV right now that, even if WWE was a really well-written, focused, cohesive wrestling show, a well-written wrestling show isn't good enough to get the very far above 4 million viewers anymore outside of nostalgia pops and such?)
That may be a significant statement. CM Punk is looking a lot like Bret Hart in that respect. Its the transition from the WWE-style overpushed, "Larger than life" super babyface to a more grounded, workhorse, common man champion. Of course I don't think him being that type of individual can account for the fall off of the audience. The drop is too large to attribute to one person. I think that is a good statement though, knowing that casual audiences expect over the top characters and story lines and they're not getting that right now.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:38 PM   #8437 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Hands View Post
A fleeting thought I should probably develop further before posting it: I wonder how much the viewers' disconnect is related to the disconnect between the champion and the rest of the roster? I feel like we've got maybe the most humanised WWE champion in a long, long time - a fairly regular-lookin' guy, for a WWE champ, with a grounded character akin to your Stone Colds and so forth, but nowhere near as mythologised a figure as the stars of the past. A product of a star-making promo that was supposed to kickstart a "reality era", a reign that was supposed to bring about sweeping changes that brought the outdated, stale WWE more in line with Punk's vision of a modern wrestling company.

And then, you put him in a program with The Terminator.

Or in a "hilarious" love triangle with a crazy skipping chick and a goat-faced maniac.

Or on a goofy "quest for respect" that insults the intelligence of everyone watching. "Just because you're the champion doesn't mean you're entitled to respect. Also, tune in to Night of Champions this Sunday." ACTUAL MICHAEL COLE QUOTE

And he's on a roster full of either weird, outsized caricatures like Cena and Sheamus, or underdeveloped blanks that could be something much more, like Barrett and Del Rio.

How much of WWE's problem is that there's too much really, really great TV available right now for it to be so confused about its own tone? Maybe they need to just decide that either we're going with cartoon characters like Ryback (who's getting over with the fans in a huge way right now) or more relatable characters like Punk (who gave the industry its most exciting moment in years) and stick with it, because putting the two types in a program together just seems to suck the air out of everyone's sails, including the audience. Maybe Punk's a really great NWA champ stuck in a Hulk Hogan world?

(Actually, running with that thought, is there so much great TV right now that, even if WWE was a really well-written, focused, cohesive wrestling show, a well-written wrestling show isn't good enough to get the very far above 4 million viewers anymore outside of nostalgia pops and such?)
That really is a good point... didn't quite think about it that way, but aside from Punk there are very few realistic characters even near the ME scene right now that just aren't cartoonish or bland. Off the top of my head... Ziggler is the only one that isn't a complete cartoon right now. Brings a new perspective on two angles... kids not conneting because he is too grounded and smarks (maybe even adult fans in general) only connecting to him and a few others because they are more realistic. So you have massive issues with the product chasing away both types of viewers.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:56 PM   #8438 (permalink)
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Maybe Punk's a really great NWA champ stuck in a Hulk Hogan world?
Never really thought of it like that before but that makes a lot of sense now that you mention it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:12 AM   #8439 (permalink)
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It was interesting enough for people to negative rep me for having "Vanilla Midgets" sig and avy, I wanted to test out Hitler, and it goes a "rant" dedicated to it... soo...
The Vanilla Midgets stuff was hilarious.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:27 AM   #8440 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

I dunno...I grew up on Nash in WCW and I always enjoyed him. Sure his in ring work wasn't the best but he was good on the stick, and actually pretty damn funny (watch his reaction to Sid's famous self-insult, its priceless).

Punk strikes me as really kind of a one note character. He's got great delivery, but the more I see of him in the Fed, the more its obvious-the guy plays an excellent jerk heel because he's a jerk in real life. He's at his best when he's given free reign to go out there and, pretty much, complain. This isn't like the days of a Hollywood Hogan where he's leading the faction of heel invaders trying to take over the company or Triple H circa 2000 who got the title and built up a fortress of guys around him while he strutted around like a cocky prick, flaunting how dominant he was. You know, the times when heels were booked to be dominant and seem threatening. Punk's current heel character is based around being a whiner who constantly boasts about a statistic in an era where that statistic means absolutely nothing.

SES Punk was something refreshing because he was being made into this cult leader type character, and they were playing off of how a lot of straight edge people have this holier than thou attitude about them. Made sense, and was done very well. This time around...doesn't work.

I'll give Punk credit, he's a very solid heel, but I personally found Nash more entertaining. Could just be nostalgia talking, but I enjoyed Nash as both a heel in the nWo and when he was a face when he broke off to form the Wolfpac, for example. Punk...he's not babyface material, and even his current heel character isn't working for me (he's engaging and his promos are solid but the character itself is flawed because at its core, it makes no sense).
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