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Old 10-12-2012, 11:46 AM   #6921 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

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Originally Posted by NearFall View Post
True. But the fact remains the same. Even though Cena is a proven draw everybody has off days. However as Starbuck has said, Cena and the others mentioned(HHH Rock) are proven money-makers. Punk and many others, Orton(outside of his massive 2009 run) and Hardy included have been what could be best described as "fluxuating" or "hit and miss" in terms of ratings(whereas all 3 have reamined incredibly over and sold lots of merchandise)
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Exactly. Guys like Cena and Rock have proven to be consistent draws whereas other like Orton (ratings/merchandise in 2009) and Punk (merchandise last year) have had their periods as valuable assets to the business but are not nearly as consistent.
Agreed with both.

All I was saying was that there has never been a proven draw that has never experienced a segment that lost viewers. Its laughable to say otherwise. They consistently bring in the high ratings and buys, of course, but they're not perfect. No one is.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:01 PM   #6922 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

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The difference is that guys like Triple H/Rock/Cena are proven big time money makers at a consistent level, something nobody else on the roster is and no, not Punk or Orton or whoever. They are proven but that doesn't mean they are full proof either. If somebody is a proven draw but they lose viewers the odd time it doesn't mean that they aren't a draw anymore. It really shouldn't be that hard to understand tbh.
Oh, I agree. I was just commenting on the person who said all proven draws are always going to do well, which obviously isn't the case. Wasn't trying to say Trips, Rock and Cena aren't proven draws lol, that would be ridiculous.
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:40 AM   #6923 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

LOL at Punk drawing. Anyone could draw in a match with Vince freaking Mcmahon, who has always been a big TV draw and well established on-screen authority for 15 years. When was the last time vince was involved in an advertised RAW match with a talent? 2009? 2010?. This is Vince Mcmahon's FIRST MATCH with a talent in the ring since Wrestlemania 26 PPV. I'm sure Vince in a match with Sheamus or even Del Rio in the overrun could have done just as big, if not more. Punk gets no credit for this and he shouldnt.

Punk marks desperate as usual, with KO bossy being their leader.

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That's pretty faulty logic considering Cena, who everyone here proclaims is a proven draw, had a quarter hour with Edge on the April 23rd go home show to Extreme Rules that did a 2.60 rating, which is absolutely horrendous. So evidently, draws don't ALWAYS bring in high viewers in WHATEVER they do.

See?
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:07 AM   #6924 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

Quote:
I'm sure Vince in a match with Sheamus or even Del Rio in the overrun could have done just as big, if not more. Punk gets no credit for this and he shouldnt.

Punk marks desperate as usual, with KO bossy being their leader.
And what makes you sure about that?

And what was so bad about what KO Bossy said about that number that Cena and Edge segment produced?
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:32 AM   #6925 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

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And what makes you sure about that?
I already have explained why. It was Vince Mcmahon in his first match since Mania that got the viewers hooked, you just need a heel who is over as a supporting act.

Quote:
And what was so bad about what KO Bossy said about that number that Cena and Edge segment produced?
3 Hrs was not a permanent thing in april. It is desperate and pathetic to go find a low quarter that Edge and Cena did at the start of the show months ago, to prove "Punk can draw". No he does not, give it up. He's undeservingly over-pushed.
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:09 AM   #6926 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

Punk isn't a draw. That is true. He is also majorly over-pushed for someone who produces the ratings he does but I think the way he was booked this year has a bit to do with that. Look at the year Punk has had. Always beating out his challengers with no real struggle or adversity to speak of.

Imagine a big buildup with some guy Vince decided to push to the big leagues FINALLY getting a title shot only to have the heel champ punch the ref as soon as the opening bell rang and getting DQ'ed, keeping the title and sending "the challenger" to the back of the line to start over again (Ryback v Punk at the next PPV? No HITC could be used in that equation though.). If milked right the audience would LOVE an underdog story like that. Instead we got WWE's formula of pushing a new talent by giving them the belt and hoping they succeed. The thing is at that point the audience has nothing to invest in, that is why this plan constantly fails. Punk winning the belt was the equivalent of reaching the top of the mountain (in WWE story-land) right at the beginning of his permanent move to main event land. Wouldn't it have been better to have Punk chase a strong heel that kept screwing him over to keep the belt from Punk? (Obviously that means he would have had to have been a face last year instead so no quitting/"shoot"/Cena feud. Some may disagree about the shoot but has it REALLY helped him that much given the facts as they are today?). That is a major reason SCSA/McMahon was successful. Even though Austin always won he was perceived as the underdog against the big bad boss. Seems like a no brainer to me but whatever.
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:19 AM   #6927 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

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I already have explained why. It was Vince Mcmahon in his first match since Mania that got the viewers hooked, you just need a heel who is over as a supporting act.
Why would you use Del Rio and Sheamus as examples for guys who would do equal to or better than Punk? They've proven to be less of a viewership commodity than the champ has been.

Quote:
3 Hrs was not a permanent thing in april. It is desperate and pathetic to go find a low quarter that Edge and Cena did at the start of the show months ago, to prove "Punk can draw". No he does not, give it up. He's undeservingly over-pushed.
It wasn't to prove anything except that bonifide drawcards like Cena and (to a lesser extent) Edge could not always bring home the bacon on every occasion that so many here think top guys are guaranteed do. That goes for just about everyone outside of a few super-dupa megastars that were near-unanimously viewer dynamite (the guy in your sig being one of those) on a weekly basis. Of course, these guys came from different eras but I digress.

I can't see how it had anything to do with trying to prove that Punk can "draw." I think you're buying into markdom a bit too much.
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:07 AM   #6928 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

My point was Vince Mcmahon and his first advertised match in two years is the reason for that big overrun gain, not punk. It didnt matter who he was against Del Rio/Sheamus/Punk, it was going to be a success regardless.

Quote:
It wasn't to prove anything except that bonifide drawcards like Cena and (to a lesser extent) Edge could not always bring home the bacon on every occasion that so many here think top guys are guaranteed do.
Once again, RAW wasn't three hours on a regular basis back then, its totally different. Cena/Edge was never meant to draw big on that night. Raw has been three hours since the 1000th episode and Cena/Heyman few weeks ago drew the biggest 8pm rating.

I dont see why anyone needs to bring up a random QH rating from months ago involving Cena and Edge into this discussion at all? Clearly, the intention was to use that and make a desperate excuse for Punk's failure at ratings. Explain Why the sudden need to prove Cena or Edge cant 'always draw big'?
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:09 AM   #6929 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

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My point was Vince Mcmahon and his first advertised match in two years is the reason for that big overrun gain, not punk. It didnt matter who he was against Del Rio/Sheamus/Punk, it was going to be a success regardless.
So why say it would've been bigger with those two than it would be with Punk?

Quote:
I dont see why anyone needs to bring up a random QH rating from months ago involving Cena and Edge into this discussion at all? Clearly, the intention was to use that and make a desperate excuse for Punk's failure at ratings. Explain Why the sudden need to prove Cena or Edge cant 'always draw big'?
Because a lot of people need reminding that even the big dogs (although Edge wasn't quite in that same echelon as Cena) are not always going to rope in the services of company viewers. That the top guys aren't going to shit out gold week in and week out. That this notion of drawing is only a side of things that takes our fandom onto new levels of ignorance when we stick up for or deride our favourites/most hated.

By the way, I'm not saying Punk shouldn't be a draw. That's a ridiculous notion that only his most blindly deluded mark would adhere to when talking about the business side of things. He needs to be a commodity as he's the champ and one of the top guys in the company. I'm of the belief that he isn't a standalone name and has only scratched the surface of being a true drawcard. What you said about Edge/Cena segment drawing low being due to the novelty of 3 hours is also likely an accurate one that I too agree with.

What continues to amuse me (and anyone with a semblance of intelligence) though is that people will try to justify their love or hatred for an individual that will only ultimately be used by the company as they see fit. They don't even see the business side spectrum outside their Nielsen ratings system mindset. Someone described it as a weekly pissing contest and I couldn't agree more in some of what's been posted.

Someone in this thread also described ratings as the 'god' of television some time ago. While there's a lot of truth to that (unfortunately) it's a sentiment shared and utilised by too many that can't get their heads past the dreaded 'weekly numberz' and argue and argue and argue about stuff that won't even eventuate from their own opinion.

The real smart guys in this thread will discuss, speculate and conceptualise ideas relating to viewership patterns and numbers, trends and the overall appeal of wrestling personalities pertaining to what happens weekly. The stupid guys will lurch around throwing numbers they don't know the meaning of to support their dumb fandom and try to (unsuccessfully) strip others of theirs.

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Old 10-13-2012, 10:39 AM   #6930 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

Guys, this is a futile argument. Here's the problem, that's already been stated like 100 times in this thread but everyone ignores because logic is not welcome her apparently: Nobody in this company, accept Cena (and even then not on a major Rock/Hogan scale) is a draw. So is Punk a draw? Not really, no. Here's the follow-up to that that never seems to be addressed though: neither is anyone else on the active roster. Randy Orton doesn't draw. Sheamus doesn't draw. Miz doesn't draw. Big Show doesn't draw. Bryan doesn't draw. Now, whether that's due to the talent itself or WWE's shit booking is an interesting conversation to have, and probably one for another thread, but the fact is nobody draws. So once you've established Punk can't draw like Cena (the only draw in the company), what do you do? Take him out of the main event? And replace him with who? One of the other non-draws listed above? What does that help?

You've got a 3 hour show to fill, and no draws to fill it. That is not a problem that is solved by "Well if only they put [INSERT FAVORITE] in the main event this show would draw!", so let's stop acting like it is.
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