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post #6311 of 9175 (permalink) Old 09-29-2012, 04:27 PM
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Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

I would quibble with one point there, Starbuck, which is that looking over live events numbers, I think Punk during his babyface run in the last twelve months did have a positive impact there for the Raw brand and for Smackdown shows that boasted him appearing. At the Oakland, CA house show I attended back in January, there were literally thousands of fans wearing Punk shirts and who fell outside the Cena "net" of fans (i.e., kids and families, of which there were many, too). I think it's fair to estimate that Punk has made a bit of a dent in attendance figures for WWE, because Smackdown shows with him and no Cena have on average largely did at least decently above the average Smackdown show which only featured Orton or Sheamus or both. As one "Is Punk a draw?" thread concerning live events attendance went a few months ago, I remember a few people and I clarifying that while Punk isn't WWE's biggest full-time draw by any means, he is a draw. There's unmistakably a solid number of fans (many of them young adult males for whom Cena became something of a non-factor or potentially even a negative years and years ago) who are going to shows to see him above anyone else, and the numbers do bear that out. It'll be interesting to see what happens with him going heel, though I imagine a significant portion of those adult males will still be cheering for Punk, buying his shirts and going to live events chiefly to see him, lol.

Tnmore, the summer of 2009 was great for Punk, but Smackdown at that time was a very poor venue from which to draw significantly unless your name was Jeff Hardy and in terms of ratings and PPV buys, Hardy never really made much of a dent, either. I was speaking of the 2011 summer as being a "great season" for Punk in terms of actually drawing, while noting that he had a fine cast of characters around whom to do so, all proven long-running draws and mega-draws which only helped Punk enormously in terms of viewership and ratings figures for quarter hours and whatnot.

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post #6312 of 9175 (permalink) Old 09-29-2012, 04:36 PM
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Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

Punk never had a real program with Batista. Even though they had a PPV match, Batista was more concerned with Edge, JBL, Kane, Cena, Michaels, and Jericho at the time. Quite a shame because I am sure that they could have mustered some fun stuff. That entire first title reign of Punk's was just a mess.
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post #6313 of 9175 (permalink) Old 09-29-2012, 04:39 PM
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Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

Yeah, that first world championship reign in 2008 was hideous.

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post #6314 of 9175 (permalink) Old 09-29-2012, 04:41 PM
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Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

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Originally Posted by Tnmore View Post
I see your point but what about his early push against the likes of Batista, Taker, Jeff Hardy? All those world titles and main events? Didnt he "retire" Jeff hardy in 09, thats huge.

In my opinion, Anyone else in Punk's place with the 6 yrs of push would have been a solid reliable draw by now, for the company.
Punk probably would've been, but for every really good thing Punk has had, it's been screwed up.

His first WHC? He wasn't quite at that level yet, and it ended in a poor way.

His second WHC/Jeff Hardy feud? It was all going good, and great for him he ended Hardy's career but Punk got himself buried by Taker with some remarks behind the scenes (not sure if ever confirmed though) and this probably would've been the run to cement Punk had that not happened.

The SES/New Nexus? Both led to nothing because they were treated as such. Mysterio handled SES and shaved Punk's head, and then Show comes in and dismantles them. New Nexus? Same thing and it got destroyed by Cena, and then Orton. Not to mention Nexus was a dead group by the time he began to lead it.

His shoot promo/Summer of Punk 2011? Comes back early, has an uneventful feud with HHH, loses, and then the night after he apologizes to HHH and becomes a squeaky clean babyface. He turns from an edgy babyface to a cringe-worthy jokester, much like Cena and now Sheamus.

His 300+ day title reign? He's been overshadowed by Cena constantly and has only main evented 2 PPV's. Sure, Cena main eventing with Rock and Lesnar makes sense. Hell, I even understand somewhat Cena/Laurinaitis main eventing over Punk's match (not like we could see the future and how much of a classic match Punk/Bryan was going to be). Also I suppose Cena ending MITB would be alright if it wasn't for the fact the MITB has never ended the PPV before. But Cena/Kane's ambulance match main eventing EC? Cena/Show main eventing NWO? Absolutely no reason they couldn't have at least put Punk's feuds/matches at that time on that level and main eventing Raw half the time. But they proceed to make him an afterthought.

Punk's Raw 1000 heel turn? He goes from a face who takes on all comers, had been in a couple triple threat title matches, one of which being a TLC, and having a lot of respect to all of a sudden having no respect, having a big issue with triple threats and becoming your standard cowardly heel number 156 who outside of his Summerslam match always gets out-smarted and made to look weak. There's nothing interesting about him as a heel besides the fact he's aligned with Heyman. The problem is Punk doesn't need a mouthpiece and it just feels like filler for Heyman until Lesnar comes back.

So while Punk has been graced with a lot of opportunities, he's been fucked out of more than his fair share. Now the first one I mentioned wasn't really anybody's fault, and though his reign ended poorly, he wasn't really ready for being the champion of Raw yet. And his second run his attitude cost him big time as that was probably the run that would've put Punk over as the top heel of WWE. However the crap that happened with his factions, the Summer of Punk, his title run and his heel turn that has been unspectacular is pure terrible booking and not his fault.

And ultimately it's that that's the reason he's not as big of a draw as he should be. He doesn't have the "it" factor where he can draw when doing nothing/having his feuds/runs/storylines ruined. I know a few people claim him to be the next Austin, and hell when he first did that shoot promo and for the first month, I thought the same thing. But it's clear now he can't ever be that. Could he be, say, an HBK? A HHH? Possibly, but at this point with his luck, it's very unlikely. He's certainly not going to be the face of the company, as he's just much more natural as a heel.

Quote:
I would quibble with one point there, Starbuck, which is that looking over live events numbers, I think Punk during his babyface run in the last twelve months did have a positive impact there for the Raw brand and for Smackdown shows that boasted him appearing. At the Oakland, CA house show I attended back in January, there were literally thousands of fans wearing Punk shirts and who fell outside the Cena "net" of fans (i.e., kids and families, of which there were many, too). I think it's fair to estimate that Punk has made a bit of a dent in attendance figures for WWE, because Smackdown shows with him and no Cena have on average largely did at least decently above the average Smackdown show which only featured Orton or Sheamus or both. As one "Is Punk a draw?" thread concerning live events attendance went a few months ago, I remember a few people and I clarifying that while Punk isn't WWE's biggest full-time draw by any means, he is a draw. There's unmistakably a solid number of fans (many of them young adult males for whom Cena became something of a non-factor or potentially even a negative years and years ago) who are going to shows to see him above anyone else, and the numbers do bear that out. It'll be interesting to see what happens with him going heel, though I imagine a significant portion of those adult males will still be cheering for Punk, buying his shirts and going to live events chiefly to see him, lol.
Edit: Interesting. Never heard anything about live event numbers for Punk.

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post #6315 of 9175 (permalink) Old 09-29-2012, 05:14 PM
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Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

@Deso, I don't dispute that he doesn't have fans who pay to see him. In some fashion, everybody does and Punk's no different. Of course he has a fanbase who pay for his merch, pay to see him at shows and pay to watch him on PPV. That can't be disputed. But we're talking large scale here. I won't deny that he draws his own fanbase, a fanbase that has no doubt grown over the past year. But he clearly doesn't seem to have the ability to draw anybody outside of that fanbase unless paired with somebody who can. This is the meat of the issue, no? The ability to draw casual fans on a large scale bases? When I said that he would have no impact on live events, I meant that in the sense that if he wasn't advertised I doubt attendance would take a major dip, not in the way that taking Cena or HHH off a card has resulted in offering refunds in the past. Not in the way HHH and Jeff Hardy had to fly to do a show in Peru I think it was back in 2008 when they got drafted to SD because the fans were kicking up a fuss about it. Of course he has an effect/impact but it's minimal. Credit where it's due though, he did help out when Orton fucked up and SD was left without...anybody to appear there lol. He deserves kudos for that, yes.

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post #6316 of 9175 (permalink) Old 09-29-2012, 05:16 PM
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Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

If you're trying to fit Punk into a comparison with a past star, I'm going to say that, in terms of main event trajectory, Punk is the new Edge.

Particularly in that Punk's main event tenure has become defined by being a natural rival to Cena. And honestly, Punk and Edge are about equal in being draws when we look at most factors. Edge used controversy in his push in one way, Punk in another. Except Punk had to be a bit hotter unto himself during his ascent vs. Cena than Edge had to be, since Cena in 2011/2012 is such old, stale news compared to Cena back in '06. (Though Cena's existence in that regard supplied Punk with the meat of his argument against Cena last year, so there is that to consider.) Also in that both Edge and Punk had/will have five year runs at the top before calling it quits.

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post #6317 of 9175 (permalink) Old 09-29-2012, 05:19 PM
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Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

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Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
@Deso, I don't dispute that he doesn't have fans who pay to see him. In some fashion, everybody does and Punk's no different. Of course he has a fanbase who pay for his merch, pay to see him at shows and pay to watch him on PPV. That can't be disputed. But we're talking large scale here. I won't deny that he draws his own fanbase, a fanbase that has no doubt grown over the past year. But he clearly doesn't seem to have the ability to draw anybody outside of that fanbase unless paired with somebody who can. This is the meat of the issue, no? The ability to draw casual fans on a large scale bases? When I said that he would have no impact on live events, I meant that in the sense that if he wasn't advertised I doubt attendance would take a major dip, not in the way that taking Cena or HHH off a card has resulted in offering refunds in the past. Not in the way HHH and Jeff Hardy had to fly to do a show in Peru I think it was back in 2008 when they got drafted to SD because the fans were kicking up a fuss about it. Of course he has an effect/impact but it's minimal. Credit where it's due though, he did help out when Orton fucked up and SD was left without...anybody to appear there lol. He deserves kudos for that, yes.
Ah, yes, I see what you're getting at there. Agreed.

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post #6318 of 9175 (permalink) Old 09-29-2012, 05:22 PM
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Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

It's interesting how both Edge and Punk's best character performances seem to spark off of Cena and what he stands for but both in entirely different ways lol.

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post #6319 of 9175 (permalink) Old 09-29-2012, 05:25 PM
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Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

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I meant that in the sense that if he wasn't advertised I doubt attendance would take a major dip, not in the way that taking Cena or HHH off a card has resulted in offering refunds in the past.
You know, this brings up something I've wanted to ask for a couple of years, but due to the fact it wasn't very important and it never seemed to be brought up after it, I suppose now is the time to ask:

Back in Late 2010-2011, Cena and Barrett were in a match at a house show, and while I forgot what happened exactly, Cena seemingly went down with an injury. I don't believe he appeared on Raw, and the fans were refunded their money. I never heard this happening before (well, I know the refund thing happened on the commercial free Raw with Trump... unless that was strictly kayfabe), but a top guy advertised but not being able to make it and people getting their money refunded? I just wonder when and if this happened before? I mean I can only imagine it would've happened with Austin and Rock at least back in the AE if they missed the show, but I wouldn't know of any instances because as far as I know, they were there every week as advertised. Just something I've been a bit curious about since.

Edit:

Quote:
If you're trying to fit Punk into a comparison with a past star, I'm going to say that, in terms of main event trajectory, Punk is the new Edge.

Particularly in that Punk's main event tenure has become defined by being a natural rival to Cena. And honestly, Punk and Edge are about equal in being draws when we look at most factors. Edge used controversy in his push in one way, Punk in another. Except Punk had to be a bit hotter unto himself during his ascent vs. Cena than Edge had to be, since Cena in 2011/2012 is such old, stale news compared to Cena back in '06. (Though Cena's existence in that regard supplied Punk with the meat of his argument against Cena last year, so there is that to consider.) Also in that both Edge and Punk had/will have five year runs at the top before calling it quits.
Yeah, I was mainly talking about by the end of his career he could be at those two level I mentioned, but he's obviously not there yet. Truth be told I'm not quite sure he's on Edge's level either. Edge was a great draw and white hot in 2006 from what I remember, and held SD up at least TV wise 2007-2008. That being said, not sure how he did merch and live event wise, but for the former, I can only assume though Punk has done better. But I suppose they're comparable.

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post #6320 of 9175 (permalink) Old 09-29-2012, 05:39 PM
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Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

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Originally Posted by The Sandrone View Post
You know, this brings up something I've wanted to ask for a couple of years, but due to the fact it wasn't very important and it never seemed to be brought up after it, I suppose now is the time to ask:

Back in Late 2010-2011, Cena and Barrett were in a match at a house show, and while I forgot what happened exactly, Cena seemingly went down with an injury. I don't believe he appeared on Raw, and the fans were refunded their money. I never heard this happening before (well, I know the refund thing happened on the commercial free Raw with Trump... unless that was strictly kayfabe), but a top guy advertised but not being able to make it and people getting their money refunded? I just wonder when and if this happened before? I mean I can only imagine it would've happened with Austin and Rock at least back in the AE if they missed the show, but I wouldn't know of any instances because as far as I know, they were there every week as advertised. Just something I've been a bit curious about since.
It's happened a couple of times with Cena and HHH when they missed shows for whatever reason. The HHH/Jeff one sticks out in my mind the most because I remember the fans being very upset and how they both had to work one show and then fly to do the one they were originally advertised for iirc. I don't remember there being any reports of it happening back in the AE tbh. You probably need to ask Rocky about that one lol.

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