[Gamblor]

^What does all this prove? "The New King of Kings/The Master of the Brocktagon/Conqueror of the WWE Universe" Brock Lesnar=RATINGZ!!!!

[Patrick Bateman]

I bet JBL did outdraw all that shit.

[Vyed]

Originally Posted by Rock316AE

Yes he was. Biggest on the roster actually. SD 2003 was significantly higher than 2004, that year they were working TVs in 3k arenas sometimes. First of all, WM19 never did "worst of all time", and second, selling point match was Hogan/Vince, Vince blamed that along with the Seattle market. "Brock had to work all of the house shows" ?? Nobody worked all the house shows, they had brand shows and HHH was working most of the year on his brand with his injury, Brock and Angle drew bigger on their brand.

It was one of the worst WM buyrates. I'm pretty sure Vince/Hogan was a big attraction match, just like Brock/Goldberg was for the following year, not the key drawing match for WM 19. Even Torch newsletter credited Lesnar/Angle for the WM 19 attendance record iirc. The last time I checked HHH got hurt in a house show against goldberg and didnt work any of them for few months.

When Brock left SD was a dead program, around that time Angle was also injured and that started the fall of the show to what it is now. Vince himself said on OTR interview that Brock was becoming bigger attraction every year and he did everything to keep him. In late 2003 Brock signed a huge contract, Vince offered him that deal because he was the top star of the company. That contract will also become a big problem for Brock when he left because according to it he couldn't wrestle until it expired(2009-2010 IIRC). I don't think you know about this situation from what you wrote there. Most of it not close to reality.

You cant trust what Vince says. He was probably putting him over as he always does with all the guys that he made. No different than vince calling hogan the GOAT one year and austin the GOAT next and shawn michaels the next. Yes, I know about that contract issue and the lawsuit that followed when lesnar left to japan. Vince tried to keep him because he gave him an insane push to make him a star, put him over all the top stars, obviously as a promoter he wasnt going to let him go after that kinda investment.

The standard for success is never biggest of all time, according to that logic, any basketball player besides Jordan is worthless. WM29 has the potential to break it if they're doing Rock/Brock. Until now he did good business, on TV he did peak most of the time or did record opening like this week and sold out shows after his return in Apri + the increase on PPV at ER and probably Summerslam, not happening without his name on it.

I never said, he wasnt a success though. I meant you cant determine how big of a draw he really is until Mania 29 next year. Brock's return thus far hasnt been overall ratings success like Rock's 2011 return was.

Originally Posted by Marv95

Such BS. Especially the bold part. Armageddon did the lowest buys at 240,000(look it up), which was a Raw PPV headlined by HHH, Goldberg and Kane. Didn't affect business one bit? Heck No Mercy 2004 did almost 100,000 less than No Mercy 2003. SD in 04 was without Brock, Hogan, Rock, Vince, Piper even Benoit. Angle was injured. Big Show took time off. Eddie couldn't do it alone and it showed. SD were doing shows in convention centers at times.

Hmm.. weird the website from which I've 2003-2005 ppv numbers saved, had No mercy at 0.46 buyrate and armageddon at 0.49 buyrate. Thats why I noted No mercy 03 as the lowest of the year.

[RatedR10]

Ryback is drawing real well lately. They should get him into a real program.

Shawn Michaels losing surprises me and then it doesn't surprise me. A guy like Michaels would usually gain, he's a legend, but the entire storyline isn't really interesting and I can see why people would tune out.

I expected a larger gain for the overrun with Cena/Punk/Lawler, but whatever.

[Rock316AE]

Originally Posted by Vyed

It was one of the worst WM buyrates. I'm pretty sure Vince/Hogan was a big attraction match, just like Brock/Goldberg was for the following year, not the key drawing match for WM 19. Even Torch newsletter credited Lesnar/Angle for the WM 19 attendance record iirc. The last time I checked HHH got hurt in a house show against goldberg and didnt work any of them for few months.

You cant trust what Vince says. He was probably putting him over as he always does with all the guys that he made. No different than vince calling hogan the GOAT one year and austin the GOAT next and shawn michaels the next. Yes, I know about that contract issue and the lawsuit that followed when lesnar left to japan. Vince tried to keep him because he gave him an insane push to make him a star, put him over all the top stars, obviously as a promoter he wasnt going to let him go after that kinda investment.

I never said, he wasnt a success though. I meant you cant determine how big of a draw he really is until Mania 29 next year. Brock's return thus far hasnt been overall ratings success like Rock's 2011 return was.

It wasn't one of the worst, it's probably still top 10 biggest domestically. What do you mean "pretty sure"? It WAS the most promoted match on the card by far(just like the Lesnar/Goldberg storyline and Rock/Foley/Evolution were the most promoted for WM20)with Vince and Hogan closing both RAW(a long overrun after Rock Concert), SD and even the 3th degree special they did before the show with Hogan on WWF New York, or The World at that time. Torch probably did that because of card position. HHH still worked most of the year, as he was champion most of the year, the point is, Lesnar and Angle just drew bigger as top guys on SD.

I don't trust what Vince said, I saw it myself, with the fact that Lesnar also was the biggest draw in the company only into his second year, which means a huge success as he did something that only Goldberg was able to do(becoming biggest and top guy in the company in one year), and that he was growing every year. And I also saw the huge impact Brock had on SD when it became a completely different program when he left in every aspect and dropped big time. Vince wouldn't offer such a huge deal to a guy who is "not clicking like he hoped" as you claimed which is a ridiculous argument without even explaining why it's wrong and how successful Lesnar was for the simple fact that he worked on the full time roster only for 16 months, and 11 months as a main eventer. For all the other BS like "lowest PPV" or ratings, others already corrected you.

Nothing was going to bring the astronomical interest Rock did in his 2011 return, that was a one time deal and like I said, not the standard. Lesnar is a big success in his current run for all the reasons I mentioned.

[Redwood Raven]

RockAE with DEM STATISTICS.

[Loader230]

Originally Posted by Rock316AE

Lesnar and Heyman was a big success, opening with 3.0, I guess when there's a real attraction, it gets people's attention even if it's not in their viewing habit.

Nobody wants to see Michaels as HHH's sidekick, crying about a storyline that 99.99999% of the audience knows is not real. They want to see the legend H-B-K when he's there.

Orton vs Del Rio as I predicted, did the peak of the show.

Big Show is still a TV machine gaining all over the place and his angry promo after losing at Summerslam was awesome.

Cena/Punk promo was the biggest surprise for me, I thought about a 800k gain like Cena usually does there, horrible gain.

This. Overrun with Cena does great numbers. Marks need to face the facts, casuals just dont care about Punk. He is not a star and never will be. He lacks "it". He is overrated, over-pushed piece of shit. Its about time Cena took the title off him.

On a side note, Was Hogan vs Vince mcmahon match really the top draw of Wrestlemania XIX? I always thought it was Kurt angle vs Lesnar because the RAW go home show of mania ppv ended with Brock lesnar and Kurt Angle recap video package and they even main evented the ppv.

[Gamblor]

Hogan/Vince was the big match of the show. After that I'm not sure what the actual order was, but I believe it was:

2) Rock/Austin
3) Lesnar/Angle
4) Booker/HHH
5) Y2J/HBK

Not sure though. That's what always struck me as far as match order in importance went. Maybe 2 and 3 are switched.

[DegenerateXX]

Originally Posted by Rock316AE

For the time he was on top? PPVs were doing better domestically than now, gates were significantly higher and they were actually selling out house shows, the difference is that back then before the AE, they didn't build the machine internationally and increased prices like they're doing now to stay above red line. Ratings? the first month of his run after WM12 until Scott Hall made his Nitro debut, increased huge and broke RAW records at that time.

Originally Posted by TeamRocketGrunt

He was carrying the entire wwf on his back, and he was also competing with the nwo, no 1 man can compete with that, without hbk wwf would have died back in 1996

Thank you guys. I'm tired of the 'HBK can't draw' shit. People need to understand WCW and the nWo wasn't going to be beaten by one man alone. HBK was WWF, and they were blessed to have him.

Anyway, him losing viewers via satellite isn't too surprising. Even The Rock has lost viewers that way. It just isn't something people want to see. They should have placed it in a better spot too.

[Rock316AE]

Originally Posted by Obis

Hogan/Vince was the big match of the show. After that I'm not sure what the actual order was, but I believe it was:

2) Rock/Austin
3) Lesnar/Angle
4) Booker/HHH
5) Y2J/HBK

Not sure though. That's what always struck me as far as match order in importance went. Maybe 2 and 3 are switched.

Hogan/Vince was by far the most promoted. In the week before the show, the main event slot changed every day between Rock/Austin, Angle/Lesnar and Hogan/Vince. In a Roundtable a year ago, JR said that Rock/Austin was supposed to close the show but with Austin's condition the night before, they thought it will be safer to deliver in the main event with Lesnar and Angle, crazy weekend with all the drama.

As for biggest in promotion:

1. Hogan/Vince
2. Rock/Austin
3. Angle/Lesnar - for this match, everybody knew that we're getting Angle vs Lesnar in the main event of WM19 from August of 2002, that was THE match for the background of the athletes alone. Combined with all the talk about their real mat wrestling contest in 2001(which Angle won BTW)and Angle's ON/OFF status for the match, they had a lot of hype.
4. HBK/Y2J above Booker/HHH because they started this with a teaser in December 2002, a great 4 months program while Booker just got his match on a battle royal after NWO(+ the stupid race angle they did with HHH).

This is Top 3 PPV of all time IMO, WM17, WM19 and Summerslam 2002.