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Old 08-17-2012, 04:39 PM   #5301 (permalink)
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:57 PM   #5302 (permalink)
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Yeah, but how is 4 weeks of being a major focus of the show an accurate gauge of his drawing ability when compared to Cena who has had 6 years to prove himself? That would be akin to putting Sidney Crosby on the first line, and in his first game, if he didn't score at least 3 goals, he's benched. If we were talking like 3-4 months and the ratings slipped, sure, but a couple of weeks? Come on.

Even Cena himself isn't pulling in the mega ratings people constantly seem to attribute to him. By their logic, based on Cena alone we should never be seeing below 3.30. 2.84 on a show featuring Cena, Brock, Hunter AND Shawn? Despite Punk's alleged inability to draw, what the hell happened with these guys?
Maybe he should have gotten more opportunities headlining shows but to be fair, even after the Hunter feud, when he closed shows, the ratings were some of the lowest ever. Didn't he have a 6 man tag match after TLC with Zack Ryder & D-Bryan as his partners? That closed the show and the ratings proved to be disappointing (and Ryder lost viewers on his main event segment a couple of weeks after ), same story when Punk vs Tensai/D-Bryan closed the show a few months back. He was also given the honor of closing Raw 1000 with the 'big storyline' by attacking The Rock and turning heel, yet all the one-time viewers for that episode couldn't be kept around because this was not good enough.

Let's be honest, he's been given plenty of opportunities and storylines to prove himself but he's failed to bring the ratings. Cena proved himself years ago which is why Vince was unwilling to turn him heel 6 years ago and continues to even today when he gets staler every passing day. And if we need more explanation for his drawing abilities, he and Big Show gained 1 million viewers just two weeks ago. I may not like him the way he is, but I give credit where it's due and as much as I'd love to see Cena's star power fade, making a heel turn possible, he just doesn't give up. When was the last time Punk gained 1 million? If he ever got any close, he happened to be in the ring with another big name like Cena or Vince. And Brock/Hunter/Shawn gained 800k viewers or something in their main event segment this week, didn't they?
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:09 PM   #5303 (permalink)
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That right there is all the proof you need. Even after a week long promotion through social media and other means, the WWE CHAMPION draws THE LOWEST QUARTER OF THE ENTIRE YEAR(I'm pretty sure it is). Hell even Ryback/JTG outdrew him by gaining 63,000 viewers over the shitty first quarter. Ryback is becoming a big TV draw.

I still dont understand WHY CM PUNK DESERVES TO BE THE LONGEST REIGNING CHAMPION IN YEARS? He clearly does not draw. What else has he done to deserve this massive push? Suck on Vince Mcmahon/Triple H's dick backstage? It use to be when the prestigious title was given only to the wrestler who could draw fans in thousands, when the wrestlers actually earned the title but now punk has completely killed the credibility of the championship.




Putting the title on punk must be the biggest mistake made by the company probably in last 10 years of WWE.
I was going to go into a reply talking about all of the things wrong with this "post" (I don't even want to call it a post, it was that bad) but I can see by your attitude in your posts that you're not someone I want to waste my time with.
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:24 PM   #5304 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

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Maybe he should have gotten more opportunities headlining shows but to be fair, even after the Hunter feud, when he closed shows, the ratings were some of the lowest ever. Didn't he have a 6 man tag match after TLC with Zack Ryder & D-Bryan as his partners? That closed the show and the ratings proved to be disappointing (and Ryder lost viewers on his main event segment a couple of weeks after ), same story when Punk vs Tensai/D-Bryan closed the show a few months back. He was also given the honor of closing Raw 1000 with the 'big storyline' by attacking The Rock and turning heel, yet all the one-time viewers for that episode couldn't be kept around because this was not good enough.

Let's be honest, he's been given plenty of opportunities and storylines to prove himself but he's failed to bring the ratings. Cena proved himself years ago which is why Vince was unwilling to turn him heel 6 years ago and continues to even today when he gets staler every passing day. And if we need more explanation for his drawing abilities, he and Big Show gained 1 million viewers just two weeks ago. I may not like him the way he is, but I give credit where it's due and as much as I'd love to see Cena's star power fade, making a heel turn possible, he just doesn't give up. When was the last time Punk gained 1 million? If he ever got any close, he happened to be in the ring with another big name like Cena or Vince. And Brock/Hunter/Shawn gained 800k viewers or something in their main event segment this week, didn't they?
All very valid points. If you'll look, I've never said that Punk was a huge draw. I freely admit that his segments often lose viewers. However, they don't ALWAYS lose viewers. And on top of that, its not ALL Punk's fault for the ratings. Partly? Absolutely. Fully? No. Even if Punk is a horrid draw, a show that featured Cena, Lesnar, Hunter AND Shawn, and the 3 latter got 45-50 minutes of the show devoted to them, the show should have done better than a 2.84 (as I've already stated). Punk wrestled 3 other guys that night, how can you tell that maybe all involved weren't that interesting? If Punk wrestled himself and it lost ratings, fine. But he didn't.
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:49 PM   #5305 (permalink)
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All very valid points. If you'll look, I've never said that Punk was a huge draw. I freely admit that his segments often lose viewers. However, they don't ALWAYS lose viewers. And on top of that, its not ALL Punk's fault for the ratings. Partly? Absolutely. Fully? No. Even if Punk is a horrid draw, a show that featured Cena, Lesnar, Hunter AND Shawn, and the 3 latter got 45-50 minutes of the show devoted to them, the show should have done better than a 2.84 (as I've already stated). Punk wrestled 3 other guys that night, how can you tell that maybe all involved weren't that interesting? If Punk wrestled himself and it lost ratings, fine. But he didn't.
I never claimed Punk is fully responsible for the bad ratings, though. Shitty booking is certainly not to be forgotten. And blaming one person for bad ratings is just foolish. The whole show doesn't revolve around one person only, so no one in specific is entirely responsible for bad ratings, although they can be bad enough to continuously make viewers change the channel. (*cough* Alberto Del Rio squashing Santino every other week *cough*)
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:02 PM   #5306 (permalink)
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End of the day Bossy, Punk hasn't been able to draw significantly without the help of a bigger name. He isn't alone in that either because it's the same for everybody else on the roster who isn't one of said bigger names. Rather than give him a fully fledged run at the top, WWE have opted to give him a half hearted and very long run just under that mark in the hopes that through sheer longevity, the masses will be conditioned to think he's a huge deal instead of actually presenting him as such. When paired with the right guys (Cena/Vince/HHH/Rock) his segments have pulled in huge numbers. When paired with anybody else he has failed to impress and at times has even floundered in timeslots that usually do a lot better and even lost viewers which is never a good sign. But like I said before, he isn't the first and he'll most likely continue to fluctuate in the ratings department depending on who he works with until WWE decides to fully solidify him into that upper echelon. The numbers back that up and to me, the real issue or the issue that deserves most attention when it comes to ratings are the double standards at play because that is where all the arguments come from.

I'll use the aforementioned Punk/Orton example that I did before. This week Punk's segment bombed and what happens? His haters storm in and proclaim him public enemy number one, a ratings killer etc etc while his marks absolve him of all blame. Switch Punk with Orton and what happens? His haters storm in and proclaim him public enemy number one, a ratings killer etc etc while his marks absolve him of all blame. Because of these reasons, it's pointless to even try to debate ratings with some people because they can't be objective about it. Like I said before, the same Punk marks getting upset over everybody putting blame on him for this week would be first in line to place blame on somebody else if it happens next week. The double standards are the problem, not the numbers themselves because any objective person can look at them and come to logical conclusions, especially when you throw a little context in there too.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:00 PM   #5307 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

I agree with your point Starbuck about double standards. At the end of the day though, everyone plays double standards with their favorites, though the best posters can usually rise above that to some degree.

In any event, the talk of Punk drawing is on both sides. I think what ended up happening was this:

1) For years, Punk marks praised Punk, call him the best in the company, etc. and haters, while not agreeing kept quiet because Punk wasn't a major star.
2) Punk becomes a major star and haters seem to take offense, along with all The Rock marks who took personal offense to comment against Punk calling him Dwayne.
3) They see his segments only gain half the time and thus will bash him anytime his segment under-performs and try to credit anyone and everyone else in a segment with Punk if it gains (which might be the case in some circumstances, but not others).
4) Marks will do the complete opposite (though not as bad as the haters), where they'll make excuses for why he doesn't do well (and some valid), but then give him all or most of the credit when ratings do well.

And that cycle has continued over and over and over for a year. If one side lets go it makes them look like the "loser" where the "winner" will keep posting the same shit over and over again. It's a never-ending mark vs. hater war. Punk and Orton, as Starbuck pointed out, are probably the two biggest stars that are the center of these wars when they come to drawing. Hell, they're probably the only ones right now. Usually the wars between marks and haters for guys like Sheamus, Del Rio, Barrett, etc. are all regarding talent, not who draws and who doesn't.

Daniel Bryan though, always has the "BRYAN DRAWS!" posters, who probably haven't met much retaliation from haters since he's not the champion or in the spotlight. I can guarantee that will change if Bryan ever gets the title or somehow becomes the center of the show and much like Punk, half his segments draw, half don't.

The overall show rating being down is on WWE for not creating compelling storylines. Lesnar/HHH, while still the biggest drawing points of the show would be even bigger if the storyline was better. Punk/Cena/Show is incredibly bland as well after the first week or two.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:37 PM   #5308 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

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Originally Posted by Choke2Death View Post
I never claimed Punk is fully responsible for the bad ratings, though. Shitty booking is certainly not to be forgotten. And blaming one person for bad ratings is just foolish. The whole show doesn't revolve around one person only, so no one in specific is entirely responsible for bad ratings, although they can be bad enough to continuously make viewers change the channel. (*cough* Alberto Del Rio squashing Santino every other week *cough*)
Exactly. One person isn't to blame. However, when I came into this thread on Tuesday, sure enough, the first thing I saw was a few posts saying "2.84? Punk continues to fail." I just wish they'd understand this simple concept-everyone has a part in a good or bad rating.

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End of the day Bossy, Punk hasn't been able to draw significantly without the help of a bigger name. He isn't alone in that either because it's the same for everybody else on the roster who isn't one of said bigger names. Rather than give him a fully fledged run at the top, WWE have opted to give him a half hearted and very long run just under that mark in the hopes that through sheer longevity, the masses will be conditioned to think he's a huge deal instead of actually presenting him as such. When paired with the right guys (Cena/Vince/HHH/Rock) his segments have pulled in huge numbers. When paired with anybody else he has failed to impress and at times has even floundered in timeslots that usually do a lot better and even lost viewers which is never a good sign. But like I said before, he isn't the first and he'll most likely continue to fluctuate in the ratings department depending on who he works with until WWE decides to fully solidify him into that upper echelon. The numbers back that up and to me, the real issue or the issue that deserves most attention when it comes to ratings are the double standards at play because that is where all the arguments come from.

I'll use the aforementioned Punk/Orton example that I did before. This week Punk's segment bombed and what happens? His haters storm in and proclaim him public enemy number one, a ratings killer etc etc while his marks absolve him of all blame. Switch Punk with Orton and what happens? His haters storm in and proclaim him public enemy number one, a ratings killer etc etc while his marks absolve him of all blame. Because of these reasons, it's pointless to even try to debate ratings with some people because they can't be objective about it. Like I said before, the same Punk marks getting upset over everybody putting blame on him for this week would be first in line to place blame on somebody else if it happens next week. The double standards are the problem, not the numbers themselves because any objective person can look at them and come to logical conclusions, especially when you throw a little context in there too.
I totally agree, debating ratings with people who are just too stubborn and blatantly turning a blind eye to evidence in support of the contrary is a total waste of time.

Double standards...gotta love em, huh?

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I agree with your point Starbuck about double standards. At the end of the day though, everyone plays double standards with their favorites, though the best posters can usually rise above that to some degree.

In any event, the talk of Punk drawing is on both sides. I think what ended up happening was this:

1) For years, Punk marks praised Punk, call him the best in the company, etc. and haters, while not agreeing kept quiet because Punk wasn't a major star.
2) Punk becomes a major star and haters seem to take offense, along with all The Rock marks who took personal offense to comment against Punk calling him Dwayne.
3) They see his segments only gain half the time and thus will bash him anytime his segment under-performs and try to credit anyone and everyone else in a segment with Punk if it gains (which might be the case in some circumstances, but not others).
4) Marks will do the complete opposite (though not as bad as the haters), where they'll make excuses for why he doesn't do well (and some valid), but then give him all or most of the credit when ratings do well.

And that cycle has continued over and over and over for a year. If one side lets go it makes them look like the "loser" where the "winner" will keep posting the same shit over and over again. It's a never-ending mark vs. hater war. Punk and Orton, as Starbuck pointed out, are probably the two biggest stars that are the center of these wars when they come to drawing. Hell, they're probably the only ones right now. Usually the wars between marks and haters for guys like Sheamus, Del Rio, Barrett, etc. are all regarding talent, not who draws and who doesn't.

Daniel Bryan though, always has the "BRYAN DRAWS!" posters, who probably haven't met much retaliation from haters since he's not the champion or in the spotlight. I can guarantee that will change if Bryan ever gets the title or somehow becomes the center of the show and much like Punk, half his segments draw, half don't.

The overall show rating being down is on WWE for not creating compelling storylines. Lesnar/HHH, while still the biggest drawing points of the show would be even bigger if the storyline was better. Punk/Cena/Show is incredibly bland as well after the first week or two.
I'm at least happy that some of us here are humble enough to say "you know what? I love X superstar and that segment he did was shit." You can acknowledge when they're not doing their best work, instead of just saying "X was involved, that makes it amazing" or "X was involved, it was terrible". AKA blind devotion and blind hate. Its so damn irritating sometimes. The Bryan marks have been getting to me lately, especially.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:23 PM   #5309 (permalink)
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Default Re: **The Official Raw Ratings Thread** (Discuss Ratings In Here)

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Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
End of the day Bossy, Punk hasn't been able to draw significantly without the help of a bigger name. He isn't alone in that either because it's the same for everybody else on the roster who isn't one of said bigger names. Rather than give him a fully fledged run at the top, WWE have opted to give him a half hearted and very long run just under that mark in the hopes that through sheer longevity, the masses will be conditioned to think he's a huge deal instead of actually presenting him as such. When paired with the right guys (Cena/Vince/HHH/Rock) his segments have pulled in huge numbers. When paired with anybody else he has failed to impress and at times has even floundered in timeslots that usually do a lot better and even lost viewers which is never a good sign. But like I said before, he isn't the first and he'll most likely continue to fluctuate in the ratings department depending on who he works with until WWE decides to fully solidify him into that upper echelon. The numbers back that up and to me, the real issue or the issue that deserves most attention when it comes to ratings are the double standards at play because that is where all the arguments come from.

I'll use the aforementioned Punk/Orton example that I did before. This week Punk's segment bombed and what happens? His haters storm in and proclaim him public enemy number one, a ratings killer etc etc while his marks absolve him of all blame. Switch Punk with Orton and what happens? His haters storm in and proclaim him public enemy number one, a ratings killer etc etc while his marks absolve him of all blame. Because of these reasons, it's pointless to even try to debate ratings with some people because they can't be objective about it. Like I said before, the same Punk marks getting upset over everybody putting blame on him for this week would be first in line to place blame on somebody else if it happens next week. The double standards are the problem, not the numbers themselves because any objective person can look at them and come to logical conclusions, especially when you throw a little context in there too.

Spot on. I think Orton and Punk COULD'VE been huge draws, but, I know your a big fan of HHH, the loss to HHH really killed both of them. In Orton's Case the WM 25 match, that was HIS time, HHH should've done the right thing and Put Orton over and made him a Cena-Esque Star. And they Completely botched the Angle with HHH-Punk, Instead of Building it up for 3 months, give Casuals a reason to watch Punk because he's with a guy like HHH, he instead loses to HHH in one of the most meaningless PPV's ever. I know your a huge fan of HHH, trust me I am too, but it's just my opinion anyway.

And Punk is a HORRENDOUS ratings guy, so that means since Casuals don't like him, I can't like him either? Some of you haters are just completely missing it.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:55 PM   #5310 (permalink)
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Punks promos always do better than his matches. I will leave it at that.
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